Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	I created a msn chat room	2		02/11 09:48pm

By Tim Harding (Timh) (147.222.140.130) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 04:47 pm:

This is a topic that I've wanted to bring up for quite some time. I am interested in fuel injecting for my 1200. I have read everything I can get my hads on about EFI, but I would like to hear what the veterans have to say about it. After I read more and more on the topic I find little reason (except cost) to ever put a carburetor on one of my cars.
It also sounds like ours friends down in Australia have good access of EFI. I've priced things in the US and I'm a little discouraged. Also, I'm a little uncertain about an intake manifold? I feel stupid for asking, but is there a stock EFI honda manifold that bolts to the 1200 head? This would clear up 75% of my problems. I'm also very interested in turbochargers and feel that EFI is the only way to go with a turbo (Don't worry, I've read a lot on the subject). A City engine is sounding better by the minute...

Anyway, I'd like to hear some brainstorming on the subject.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 05:13 pm:

Hey Tim,

There is no stock efi manifold that will bolt up to your head. There are a plethora of books on intake manifold design though. Basically you could custom make one very easily, make the plenium at least 1/2 the size of engine capacity and I think ideal length runners for the 1200 are about 11 inches. Manifolds are very easy to get made up. If you have a design and go and see a specialist aluminium fabricator (boats or planes, boat guys are usually cheaper) you will be surprised at the cost. Jack a throttle body of a readily available domestic car (around 55-60mm). Quad throttle bodies, however, will cost as much as an ECU, approx price in australia is around $1000-1200. You will need a crank trigger, this can be set up by converting the guts of you dizzy or by using a toothed trigger wheel off the crank pully. I would remove the distributer completely and use quad coils (see peters car on the racecraft web page).

EFI allows mild cams to have good idle quality, improves drivabilty of cantakerous engines, improve emissions, impriove economy and best of all improves power.

By ROotUS (203.34.130.132) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 07:38 pm:

I want a new motor, preferably a city-t ....
but i have been thinking, how much for a stock city motor (not turbs)? it couldn't be bad to have a sme size motor with efi could it? what would be costs in setting up electrics? i saw a complete honda city for around 500-600 bucks, with crap body but ok motor... are there any other cool bits that i would want from a city?

has anyone else got a plain city motor in their civ?

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

Plain city motors are carbied no EFI. More potential in a stock civic motor (bigger valves, crossflow head etc etc).

If you want to fit EFI naturally aspirated motor go with the Jap EFI EW2 (80hp)engine, the jap import EFI D15B (130hp), the city 2 (jap only) EFI D13B 100hp or the ZC 1600 (D16) series of motors (integra, crx, civic vti/dx). All will fit with a few mods. Big gains in performance and economy (as well as reliability if done right).

By 2low2go (209.148.232.114) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 01:34 pm:

I've done the ZC in my wagon..it's quick as hell..pretty easy fit, the original('87) crx Si into the 78..and now a ('93)D16Z6(SOHC VTEC)into a 78 hatchback..lots of mods including new front x-member and custom built oil pan(needed clearance for the tie rod end)..i'll post pics of the mounts soon... The turbo II motor is now on it's way from NZ for the wife's 76 convertible!

Justin

By ROotUS (203.34.130.170) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 06:39 pm:

are there much good car stuff in nz for me to import? wouldn't it be cheaper than from jap.?


ps.. in aus

By 2low2go (209.148.233.206) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:22 pm:

I'm not sure on the shipping price for ya? for the turbo II conversion(complete)to ship to canada was $200 NZ dollars, and the price for the stuff is relatively cheap($1000.oo NZ)for the complete turbo II motor, tranny, ecu, axles, wiring, intercooler etc..the place i deal with is Strong for Honda in Auckland..need any more info just ask!!
Justin

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 08:57 pm:

Great prices, especially shipping, interesting to hear on the engine condition, when I was last there they had very few Honda city turbo parts.

Charles

By A.W. (165.247.190.7) on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 09:08 pm:

i live in the U.S. Is I have a 81 1300. I would love to turbo it and do efi. Is there any hope for me to get maybe a city turbo in the states? I guess i would need the whole deal, engine, tranny, ecu, the whole works. Or is there any other motor that i could fit, like a newer honda engine with minamel work.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 06:55 pm:

The 1300 would take the manifolds off the city turbo to make an EJ turbo. There are very minor mods required. Apart from the capacity increase with the EJ you get a shorter stroke and bigger valves meaning more power and revability. Your standard trans will cope fine if it in in good condition just uprate the clutch.

Basically your just adding a factory EFI turbo kit to your 1300. You should find emmissions are well down compared to the standard car and well below the required levels. Remember the city gets 68mpg at 60km/hr constant.

By A.W. (165.247.185.59) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 07:57 pm:

Charles, could you email me a parts list of what i would need and prices. I want to do this. When you say that apart from the capacity increase with my EJ i get a shorter stroke and bigger valves do you mean my motor has more power and revability or the city turbo block does? Sorry for the ignerance and thanks for the help.


A.W.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:31 pm:

Yep, your motor has more potential for power than the city motor (both due to capacity and revability) and with an over bore you are looking at even more capacity (up to 1440cc).

The shorter stroke motors will rev harder without causing damage than long stroke motors.

By A.W. (165.247.185.59) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 09:19 pm:

Thanks for the help Charles. I look forward to dealing with you although you probably dont look forward to all the questions i will have. Oh yea what kind of revs are we talking.

By A.W. (165.247.185.59) on Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 10:13 pm:

Charles i forgot one thing. you didnt mention the rods. are the stock one ok or do i need somrthing stonger.

a.w.

By ROotUS (203.20.149.5) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 04:04 am:

how much trouble is it fitting the 1300 in 1200 (no time for searching).
also wouldn't it be impossible to get hold of city turb. manifold and accessories?

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 03:04 pm:

ROOTUS: 1300 is basically same block as 1200 so direct swap in. You will have more trouble trying to source an EJ 1300 CVCC engine than trying to get a city turbo manifold system. The reason this swap has merit is there are plenty of worn out city turbo motors around (remember they first appeared in 81). The cost of the ER turbo engine parts is typical Honda and you can buy plenty of aftermarket parts to suit EB/EJ block.

AW: Depends on the revs you want to run AW. The 1300 rods have been proven good for 7000rpm and 210hp. That's as far as I'd like to take them in the EJ/ER hybrid.

If you have the money go for stronger ones but there is always something else the money could be spent on. 90% of rod failures are due to bolt failure so make sure you spend money on good rodbolts.

By A.W. (165.247.190.59) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 08:31 pm:

Thanks for the input Charles. When i go with the ARAIS pistons what diameter do i get and do i just ask for low copression pitons or what? Also if i wont to bore ir out to 1440cc what can i expect to get out of it then,once again what about the rods, and also what to ask for about the pistons?
Thanks again and Godspeed,

A.W.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Monday, February 12, 2001 - 08:54 pm:

Basically with the engine in bits you can work all this out. If I had an EJ I could do it in no time. Basically you need to cc the head, measure headgasket thickness and then measure the piston height at TDC (ie how far down the bore it sits). Work out the volume you need to acheive the compression ratio you want, the work out how much to take off the compression height of the piston.

Quick and rough way is to find out the stock compression ratio (I think about 8:1) and with that in mind you can work out the standard chamber size (ie mathmatical cc'ing). Then do the same calculations mentioned above.

Basically you may find that using a dished type EB piston may give you the desired ratio. You can take it out to 74mm. Again, rods only if you have the cash. The white turbo civic on our page runs this sort of bottom end (with cosworth 6.6:1 forged pistons(74mm)) and stock rods. It has put out about 200hp on the dyno and has done a lot of work with no probs. When you get into the conversion you will find the piuston bit the easiest.

By ROotUS (203.20.149.5) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 04:22 am:

what car does this EJ 1300 CVCC come in. was this released in australia? the 1300 i was thinking of is just a second gen civic motor that isn't cvcc. does it need to be cvcc to fit manifold? how much are we looking at for the city turb setup?

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 03:11 pm:

City turbo exhaust manifold just about fits any counterflow 8 port E series engine (ie accord, prelude etc between 79-83). That should get a few thoughts rolling.

The EJ was released in the US and Jap second gen civic inplace of the EN, it has the same EN/EB type block. The Jap version was much gutsier than the US version.

By A.W. (165.247.182.221) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 07:36 pm:

Charles you lost me. I SUCK at math. So if i go and ask aries for some pistons all i need to get is 74mm pistons bowl shaped. Do i need to increase my comperssion or lower it? If the whit civic is running 6.6:1 i need to raise mine a little or lower it? Compression confuses me. Amy way when i first get the conversion do i need to do any the besides get an oil return for the turbo and can i tap that in the oil pan instead of the block?
Thanks again and Godspeed,
A.W.

By A.W. (165.247.178.49) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 09:10 pm:

Charles, will the red City turbo valve or cam cover(not sur what you guys call it) fit my 1300?

A.W.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 09:42 pm:

AW the red magnesium rocker cover will not fit the 1300 (i doubt it will anyway) but it may be worth a try.

If you contact ARIAS and say I want X bowl shape piston they will want to know much more. Namely compression height (from pin centre to piston crown), Ring thickness, height of ring pack, pin diameter etc etc.

I cannot give you the numbers without seeing an EJ head (and then ccing it). But if the standard motor is 7.9:1 with a 72mm bore and 82mm stoke (1335). Divide the swept volume by 4. 1 cyl is 333.75cc divide by 7.9 (compression ratio). The total combustion chamber volume is 42.24.

Now if you want a 7.5: compression ratio just divide your cylinder volume by 7.5 ie 44.5.

So if you are shooting for a 7.5:1 compression ratio you need to increase your combustion chamber volume by 44.5-42.24= 2.26cc.

Now go to the cyl dimensions. 2.26/(piston radius/2)^2 ie 2.26/13.22=0.17cm or 1.7mm.

Therefore you would need a standard EJ type piston with a compression height 1.7mm less than stock. You may find that one of the versions of the EB pistons fit this criteria meaning you don't need them to custom make you a set of pistons that would be a one off. Even so it is that easy to work out.

However as your compression is already a low 7.9 either find other pistons to swap in or use a sandwich plate to lower the compression the desired amount (vary the thickness of the sandwich plate).

By ROotUS (203.34.130.137) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 04:51 am:

so turbo wont go on an australian 1300??
what can i do with that motor?

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 02:49 pm:

A turbo will go on the OZ 1300 but it is a fabrication exercise and can be very expensive. The results however are very rewarding.

See

http://www.users.bigpond.com/Racecraft/Pictures/Peter_s_Car/peter_s_car.html

For a turbo 1300.

By A.W. (165.247.183.22) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

Charles. Now i am even more confused then before. When i get the turbo conversion if i want to settle with the 8psi oof boost can i keep the rest of the engine stock? Also if i was to pet in a "dished" EB pisto will it be the right diameter? What kind of problems am i looking at if the compression is to high or to low? And back to the basic set up when you said i need to drill out an oil return for the tirbd can it be in the oil pan instead of the block, because i am deathly affraid of tapping a hole in my block? And the final question is do you think the city turbo grill will fit my 81 1300 and was there any City Turbo emblems on the Citys over there?
Thank you so much for the help and as always Godspeed.

A. (i hate carbs and want efi)W.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 04:44 pm:

AW If you were to only run 8psi the stock engine would be fine but would at least need a rebuild for best performance. If you stuck with the standard bores the EB2/3 pistons are the same diameter as the EN/EJ pistons. If you rebuilt it with forged pistons it would actually be fine for 15psi (as long as you were not getting any detonation and using high quality fuel.

I prefer a tapped hole in the block (don't be afraid) take off your sump and drill and tap, try to get it so the oil drain does not line up with a rod (oil whipped up from the rod can reduce oil flow from the turbo). You can have it in the sump if you have to but if you have too high an oil level you will get too slow a flow of oil from the return line.

Your block is not pressurised, by drilling and tapping a hole in it you will not weaken it.

By A.W. (165.247.183.22) on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 05:00 pm:

Dude i must say again that you are incredable. By sump you mean the oil pan i assume. So basicly take off my oil pan, alighn the hole in between two piston? at the base of the block, just above the oil pan and presto oil return for the turbo? Oh yea on what side of the block, the side towards the front of the car or to the firewall side? I think i got that part now. Back to the piston thing. So i could keep the standerd bore and get foged pistons, do the rod and head bolts, and keep around the stock compression? do i have that part right? With firged pistons i will still have to tell the the compression right?Is there any way that i could get the pistons from you also. That would be so much easier than trying to tell some country yaahoo what i am doing and have him laugh at me. V8 muscle cars are the rage state side. Any way thanks for the continued help. Thanks so much again and Godspeed,
A.W>

By A.W. (165.247.191.247) on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 07:02 pm:

Charles i guess will leave this alone for a while untill i get the money to get the stuff from you. i have riddled you to death with questions at this point. You have taught me so much and i am greatfull. I believe i have it now except this piston thing.
Thanks again and Godspeed,
A.W.

By A.W. (165.247.189.156) on Sunday, February 18, 2001 - 07:51 pm:

charles last thing for now. read mt post above about the oil return drin and see if i got that correct.
Thanks and Godspeed


A.W.

By errol (152.163.197.49) on Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 06:55 am:

Charles...look what you've done!....you have him soo excited that he's missing letters in his words!! only kidding (htats' hwy i dont'hav spelckek)

Charles; do you live/work near a major airport? I might be able to send you a 1300 us motor to mess with (i work in airfreight now)

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Tuesday, February 27, 2001 - 02:24 pm:

Hey Errol,

The closest airport to me is the Cairns airport (Queensland, Aus), it does have international flights in and out.

Charles

By A.W. (165.247.181.50) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 02:33 pm:

Yes, If you must know Errol i am excited. Charles i am planing on getting the turbo from you in about 3 months. You had mentioned something about the cam from the city turbo maybe not fitting. Is that a big deal? Will the settup still work and perform? Also what tranny should i use with my engine. In case you dont recall it is a 81 1300. And back to the oil return for the turbo, read my post about 5 post above to see if i have the oil thing right. Thanks again and Godspeed,
A.W.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 03:42 pm:

Hey AW,

You are on the right track with the oil return. As the turbo sits on the firewall side this is where the drainback will be. The stock 1300 cam will probably work fine (as these are usually low overlap cams which work very well with turbos. If the city turbo cam does swap in we can provide a few mild to wild cams to increase the boot a bit. Use the stock trans, you may want to use big wheels or find one with a lower final drive if you get sick of not being able to use first and second.

By A.W. (165.247.175.191) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 07:55 pm:

Why would I not be able to use first and second? I only have 4 gears. What type of fitting will i tap into the block and is there a line already on the turbo? Man, if we make this hybrid work, this will be the coolest car. Think of the WOW factor when someone looks under my hood. I can't wait. I bet you cant either so i will leave you alone. Thanks again and Godspeed,
A.W.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Wednesday, February 28, 2001 - 09:18 pm:

First and second will cause excessive wheel spin . The ER1200 we have here comes on boost pretty late (bigger turbo) and at about 120km/hr in third gear it starts to light up the front tyres! When it comes on boost in those early gears it will hit the rev limiter in the blink of an eye if the motor is producing any real power. You will want to at least chase down a 5 cog box if you don't have one already (another EJ 5 speed will be fine).

As for the oil fitting it is very simple, you would just need a male barbed fitting taped into the block with a minimum ID of 5/8"

By ROotUS (203.34.130.84) on Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 05:34 pm:

i have the ct now... and if that motor is shot... then i would still like to consider the 1300 turb. you say that it would cost me a fair amount to fabricate manifolds to work my turbo and efi for the en 1300 - and nothing if i had an ej 1300 cvcc - would it be possible for me to source an ej head from the states or other places - whap it on an en block and with the city wiring loom away i go?

By ROotUS (203.34.130.84) on Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 05:34 pm:

i have the ct now... and if that motor is shot... then i would still like to consider the 1300 turb. you say that it would cost me a fair amount to fabricate manifolds to work my turbo and efi for the en 1300 - and nothing if i had an ej 1300 cvcc - would it be possible for me to source an ej head from the states or other places - whap it on an en block and with the city wiring loom away i go?