By Jacob (24.12.161.208) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 11:39 am:

I've decided to stay with the EB2 1200, go with 1300 crank and rods, the EB2 head, goldwing pistons, and a dual carb setup. Is this a good setup for autocross?

Ok now the real question, about how much am I looking at (US) to get the head decked and honed, and the block bored (basically have them rebuilt).

Any comments on the above mentioned motor setup would be greatly appreciated.

Also, for the 1300 crank and rods, should I try to find these off of a salvaged car, or just go buy new ones? If so, where can I find them inexpensive?

By tedshred (64.199.214.56) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 02:08 pm:

Jacob, that is my next question, so I look foward to what others say it should cost. I did some prelim phone calls to shops and yards to get the details on expenses and here is what I've found.

Goldwing pistons are 72 bucks each new, or 288. for 4, this includes rings and pins.

To bore each block hole will cost 25 per hole. 100.00 for 4.

The used crank and rods from the 1300 will cost 75 bucks, buy you gotta pull them yourself.

The head work will cost at least 25 to prep, and then the valve grinding and optional shaving should fetch about another hundred at least, so the total I get is at least: 588.00

While you have the head all nice and clean, you might consider slapping in a faster cam, and that would set you back another 200 bucks at least.

You realize it just might be cheaper to drop a larger engine in there at this point. That way you could get a 5-speed as well.

By david (206.98.121.92) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 02:47 pm:

tedshred, $588 for head work??? are you sure you didn't mistype?

jacob, you can easily put a 5 speed on an eb1, 2, or 3. i've heard the 1st gen. wagon tranny is very good.

also you can get a good performance cam from shadbolt cams for about $150 with shipping. depending on where you are, of course. you will also need a new oil pump gear to go with that new cam. as well as new or reconditioned rockers.

when you get the goldwings make sure and get total seal rings. they are the best.

By ROotUS (203.34.130.81) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 04:11 pm:

i think he means 588 for all the work, includind head work---

By Jacob (128.193.4.98) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 04:58 pm:

Man you guys are smart, keep the information coming. You guys know how to build a motor. Anybody have any associated websites that might have prices for this stuff, cam, rockers... etc (I'm in western Oregon)

david, any idea about how much a 5 spd out of a wagon would set me back.

I considered finding a larger motor, but I like the small weight of the 1200, and I read somewhere that with a larger motor (1500, 1751), it would mess up my weight ratio, and perhaps alter cornering prowess. I'm building this car to autocross, so cornering is a large concern.

Also, I most likely will not get all of this stuff done at one time. I'll most likely get the head done soon (right now the head gasket's blown), along with a dual carb setup(suggestions).

Then I'll gradually collect the pistons, crank, rods, cam(?). Then when I've accumulated everything, I'll pull the motor, have it bored, and put it all together.

Thanks for all the information guys.

By david (208.130.246.149) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 06:42 pm:

jacob i live in portland. where are you?
stay with the 1200. you can get plenty of get up and go out of it for street/autocross use. what you want to do would more than double your horse power.

you'll need to find a good header too. espessialy if you get dual carbs. i'm getting a pair a keihens, which are motorcylce carbs that honda put on the sports model(RS) of the civic in japan. you should be able to find a pair for $200 or less, but you'll have to search.

a wagon 5 speed should cost you about $100-150. just keep looking around the wrecking yards. altough you won't know how its been treated.

also, you should think about suspension. stiffer springs, sway bars, good struts, new wheel bearings, new bushings all around, greasing up all the little nipples in the suspension, etc.

if you have the cash you could also pick up a copper head gasket and not have to worry about it blowing again(a plus if youre going to autocross). plus you can use it over and over again. i think peaco has them for about $160-ish.

i just got my '73 about a month ago, so most of this info is from this board and all nice people involved.
i'm pretty much doing what your doing, but i'm not changing out the crank or pistons until i need to rebuild. the engines strong, so im hoping that won't be for a couple years.

By Charles R. (64.170.157.191) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 07:52 pm:

I think the 1300 crank/rod with goldwing pistons and the EB2 head combo will push your compression ratio above pump gas range. Are you ready to run race gas only? If you keep the 1200 crank/rods and use the goldwing pistons, I think it will just squeek by.

By Anonymous (65.4.161.150) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 08:54 pm:

i have a eb3 motor and im totally rebuilding it im go to put the 1300 crank rods and flywheel in it im going with the 78 .50mm over pistons and i was wondering if there is going to be a clearence problem
also wondering on head work is there any special valves i should go with or should i just have the stock ones ground... should i go with a performance cam and what size and brand should i go with inexpensively

By Jacob (24.12.161.208) on Saturday, March 17, 2001 - 11:55 pm:

david,
I'm in Corvallis, thanks for all the info. Where can I look to find a header? Also, we've pretty much got the suspension figured out, there's a lot of info on this board!

Charles R.
What about 1300 crank/rods goldwing pistons, and the EB3 head with the larger combustion chamber?
Also, what about 1300 crank/rods with the stock pistons and new rings?

Also compresion ratio, what kind of numbers are we talkin' here.

Thanks for all the info guys, you rule!

By david (208.130.245.124) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 09:47 am:

i might know of a header for you. the guy had two and didn't know if he wanted to sell both of them. i'm picking up one, first an and foremost, but i'll talk to him if you like. he only wanted $75.

oh, and tedshred. sorry for the misunderstanding in the earlier message. i read it wrong.

By Jacob (24.12.161.208) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 12:51 pm:

david,
Just curious, how old are you? if you don't mind saying. About the header, can you see if he still has it, and if he does, give me his information.

This car is a collaboration, so I discuss everything with my roommate. We're college students so we have to weigh everything we do by the all mighty $$. We don't got a lot of it to spare.

Biggest concern right now is getting it running. The guy we got it from said it ran until he thinks it blew a head gasket. So, while the head's off we'll probably have it polished, honed, whatever. We still have to decide if we're going with the EB2 head or an EB3.

This discussion board is the coolest

By david (208.130.240.21) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 01:24 pm:

jacob, i'm 20.
i've heard that polishing the head is a waste. again all my info is from thru board.
also, i'd listen to what charles has to say. he knows what he's talkng about.

i have a '73-'79 dealer shop manuel on the way that i'm not going to need. i'll sell it to you at cost(about $15 plus s&h). email me at nooneon@hotmail.com

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.227) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 03:01 pm:

hmmm ... where to start ...

"...1300 crank and rods, the EB2 head, goldwing pistons..."
Not the best combination unless you run very high octane fuel (as Charles R. said) as you will have a very high compression ratio. I can't tell you exactly, but I would guess around 12:1. 1300 bottom end with an EB3 head, skimmed a couple of mm, and goldwing pistons will give a nice useable CR or around 10:1.

You'll also need an adjustable cam sprocket to get the cam timing correct (around A$100).

Never heard of honing a head, I assume you mean ported. If you get the head ported get it done by someone who knows what they are doing. An EB3 head needs little more than a clean up and remove the casting ridges. Don't get it polished.

"...You realize it just might be cheaper to drop a larger engine in there at this point. That way you could get a 5-speed as well. ...".
EB 5-speed (if you can find one) or EN 5-speed bolts STRAIGHT ON to any EB or EN block.

In your price calculation you forgot some very important things ... timing belt, bearings, gaskets and seals. It's fairly simply - Honda gaskets work and are expensive, generic gaskets are cheap and leak. Some seals are common, like the crank seals that can be bought from a bearing shop or similar and usually have the honda part numbers on them, but things like the sump gasket, oil pump screen, cam seal, rocker cover gasket etc. are best got from Honda (unless you like a very oily engine). I can't tell you how much it'll all cost (go talk to your local Honda dealer), but I can tell you they won't be the cheapest part of a rebuild by a long way.

Copper head gaskets just don't seem to work too well on Honda engines (too much movement) and if you do use one you must o-ring the block (good idea to get this done anyway.) US$160 for a copper gasket is a rip-off. You can get them for about A$100, which is around US$50 at the moment.

Other things you forgot to mention: balancing rods, pistons, cam, flywheel, lightening flywheel, new clutch ... the list goes on.

Basically, be prepared to spend a lot more money than you think (you want to do it right the first time don't you?)

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 03:13 pm:

Best thing for a standard head for more power is to clean up the ports (get rid of the casting dags), port the throat area (blend the seats, there a big gains here), blend and smooth the short side radius. Polishing the ports does not increase flow velocity, if anything a slightly rough surface will. BUT you can polish the exhaust port as a polished port will not have carbon build up on it so much.

Don't hog out the ports, they are big enough, don't cut the guides flush with the head. If you fit new guides spend a little extra on bullet nose guides.

I also polish the combustion chamber after ccing them. Same sort of thing, less chance for carbon build up. Lastly go for a good valve job. All head places should give you a three angle seat, but ask for a three (to 5) angle job on the valves (ie a couple of back cuts).

None of this should cost very much but will give you a noticable increase in power and economy on a standard motor.

By Jacob (24.12.161.208) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 03:42 pm:

david
I'm 20 too. Dealer shop manual? Is this like a Haynes or Chilton manual? I'm probably interested.

Adrian
What about 1300 bottom end, EB2 head, and factory pistons? Any thoughts?
Also (A$100 =Australian?) "Copper head-gasket.. if you do use one, o-ring the block" What does o-ring the block mean?
$50 for a copper gasket doesn't seem too bad, unless they don't work well. Also, if I go with Honda gaskets, any guesses what a full set would cost?
Any recommended sources for balancing rods, cam, flywheel, lightening flywheel, clutch...etc?

Charles, Adrian
Guesses on how much the 3-5 angle valve job would cost on an EB2 or EB3. Also, do either of you recommend one over the other (head:EB2, EB3).
Thanks for the head info, since it'll be the first project. Would I have any problems putting the EB3 head on the stock motor for now until I get the parts to build it up?

Thanks for everything... keep it coming, I know I've got a lot of questions, but I'm trying to learn all I can about this before I dive into it.

By david (206.98.121.50) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 04:52 pm:

jacob, the manuel is directly from honda. the ones that the service guys at the dealerships used. i love it. it is very comprehesive. lot of pictures. the chilton manuel is crap. i haven't looked at the haynes manuel, but they usually make very solid manuals. i have a clymer manuel, but the only advantage over my shop manuel is the wiring diagrams are in color and very easy to read. also, the how to keep your honda alive for the complete idiot book is worth getting. explains things in a simpler way. you can usually find it on ebay if you just keep looking. don't bother with an online booksearch. they usually want $70-90 for the damn thing. i'm getting mine for $15 thru ebay.

in case your carb needs a rebuild, i have a stock one that has almost new inerds.

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.227) on Sunday, March 18, 2001 - 09:19 pm:

Yes A$ = Australian$.
By factory pistons do you mean EB2 or EN1? The pin to crown height is about the same for both. Should work ok with an EB2 head, but you wouldn't want to take too much off it. With that combo you'll end up with around 10:1 or a bit higher.
One engine builder I can think of who builds some very potent EB engines only uses EB2 heads with standard valves. Other people like the bigger valves and ports of the EB3. Smaller ports/valves give higher port gas speeds, but bigger ports/valves usually allow more revs and power at higher revs. It's always a toss-up.
As Charles said, a 3 to 5 angle valve job and a good clean up in the correct areas will work wonders.

O-ringing the block involves cutting a groove in the deck around the cylinders and inserting a piece of wire into it that stands proud of the deck. It give a bit more crush to the head gasket around the critical cylinder area. I think when I got mine done it was around $10-$15 a pot, but that doesn't mean much as you are in a totally different part of the world.
I used a copper gasket once around the block before it blew (waste of $100). You'll have far fewer problems with a normal (good quality) gasket.
I have no idea where you should get your parts machined (including balancing etc.) in your part of the world. Ask around in your local car clubs (you do belong to one don't you?) As I said I don't know how much a full set of gaskets and seals will cost (but it will be well over US$100 (the sump gasket alone is about A$80 here)). If you get Honda bearings as well you'll be spending hundreds. As I said, go talk to your local Honda dealer or look at some of the sites mentioned on the board to do with parts (but make sure you get genuine Honda bits).

"Would I have any problems putting the EB3 head on the stock motor for now until I get the parts to build it up?" By this do you mean an EB3 head on an EB2 bottom end? If you do ... don't, you'll have stuff all compression. If you mean on an EN1 bottom end then sure, no problems, as the EB3 head is virtually the same as the EN1 head.

By Jacob (24.12.161.208) on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 10:54 am:

Adrian,
by factory pistons, I mean the EB2's that are currently in the block, with new rings, maybe new pistons and rings. Anyway, I'm talking EB2 pistons.

With all research done here's the setup we're going to go for: EB2 block, 1300 crank/rods, EB2 pistons, EB2 head, mild cam, dual carb's, header, freeflow exhaust. And a 5 spd eventually (most of this is eventually), for now we'll re-do the head, and start collecting the other parts.

Thanks for the info guys.

By Charles R. (64.170.157.219) on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 11:08 pm:

My personal recomendation for your racing is to leave the car stock. Build your 1200 back to fresh and just run the thing. You'll be surprized at how competitive you can be against the other "H Stock" cars.
Put your money into TIRES! That, and seat time will make the biggest difference in this kind of racing.

If you're honest to the other competitors about what you're building, you'll be in the back of a MOD class for a very long time. All modesty aside, I have tons of track time and years of (admittedly) low budget prep and I am STILL lightyears away from the leaders of my class (my choice, Open Street Prepared or D MOD).

Ok, I'm getting off the soap box now..

When purchasing the head gasket from anywhere, even the dealer, check to make sure it does not have a graphite coating(it will feel slick). McCord and some other manufactures put this coating on to help if you have a cast iron block and an aluminum head. The problem is, they then just stamp ALL of their gaskets out of this stuff no matter what the application. The last good one I got was "Fel-Pro" brand.

I think the 1300 rods/crank with EB2 pistons and an EB2 head will give you a 9.75:1 compression ratio.
I think the 1200 with goldwing pistons and an EB3 head makes 10.5:1
And then, I believe, the 1300 with the same combo would be over 12.5:1
My current setup: EB2 block bored .080", 1500cc CVCC pistons,1300 crank/rods and an EB2 head gives me a 12:1 ratio. I can drive it on premium gas and octane boosters, but it will ping if I hammer it. I try to run only race gas. I'll be changng to an EB3 head soon.

I'm Charles, not Charles

By david (208.130.245.246) on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 11:21 pm:

Charles R.= san fransico guy
Charles= australia, racecraft engineering guy

could we please get your turn ons?
non smokers and long walks on the beach, etc.

By Charles (137.219.16.107) on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 02:05 pm:

If anyone is interested there are 2 brand new still in their wrapping EB3 shortblocks and complete heads for sale in AUS. These are brand new direct from Honda and in their original wrapping. Not recalls or anything. The guy wants about $800AUD for the short block and head or $300AUD for the head alone.

You could not get a better base for a production car race motor that must be stock.