By kenche (130.212.14.171) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 09:37 am:

My car is almost done. Now I just wonder what type of motor oil and trans oil I should used. I have a rebuilt 1500 cvcc engine and I put in a used 5 speed trans. Should I used 10w-30, 10w-40 for both or I should use different oil for trans or engine?

By Paul Krummenacker (12.145.208.11) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 11:32 am:

here is what I run in my commuter/Rally car.

Motor: Valvoline 10W-30
Tranny: Redline 10W-30

with the motor I didn't use a synthetic because I change the oil at least every 3000 miles or right after a really dusty or hot event.

in the tranny I run a full synthetic, I used Red Line, but David is using Mobil 1 in his 1200. I don't change the transmission oil that often so I wanted something that will last longer.

if the motor is freshly rebuilt I'd say do the old 500 mile oil change, then another one at 1000 miles, another at 2000 and then every 3000 after that. use a good oil filter. I use the OEM filters, they have the anti drain back spring/valve in them.

hope this helps

By kenche (130.212.237.172) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 11:54 am:

Where can I get the OEM filters? I use fram oil filer. Also why a freshly rebuilt engine has to change it so often for the first few thousand miles? Thanks for your help. It really help.

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.71) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 08:33 pm:

After a compete overhaul I drop the filter after the initial start up and put a new one on & top up the oil level. Get rid of all the metal shrapnel from everyting wearing in. Then Pauls instructions after that are great. The reason is to get rid of all the fine metal particles that come off parts as they wear in, as well as the fact that there is more friction between componensts and the oil might break down sooner...besides, it's your cheapest insurance against premature engine failure down the road.

No need for only using OEM filters. All (warranty approved) oil filters (quality brand name that is) have the check valve in them. And all have a bypass valve as well so if the element gets pluged...well dirty oil is better than no oil is the idea there!! I have used Fram for years and my truck has 820,000 km's on it!!! The 1200 is about 280000 km's... No worrees there...

Paul why such a light grade of oil for a car you race? I run 20W 50 Valvoline in the hottest months as I run this thing hard and the tollerances are probably fine for a heavier oil. I only run 10w 30 when its -20 or colder.

By Charles R. (64.170.157.201) on Thursday, March 29, 2001 - 11:21 pm:

The thicker the oil, the greater the "pumping" losses (due to increased shear resistance).
I use Motul brand oil for my tranny. Motul is a motorcycle grade synthetic oil. Because Motorcycles share the oil in the engine and tranny, there are some different additives to help with the type of stresses typical to gearboxes. Be aware though, if your tranny seems harder to shift (or grinds) after filling with synthetics, switch back. The added "slickness" can interfere with the syncro rings' ability to do their job. They need a little fricton to speed up, or slow down, the gears to match revs when shifting.

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.182) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 01:06 am:

Good thinking on the tranny oil idea Charles. I am going to try that. The tranny I am running 10W 30 and 10W40 winter/respectively.
I was referring to engine oil with the 20W 50. It's still a multigrade and I change it as soon as I can tell the starter is straining at all. I always let her warm up. Can't run synthetic as the seals are a bit weepy and I heard that small oil leaks can become a big leak if one changes to synthetic.

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.182) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 01:09 am:

Oh Kenche make sure you don't use synthetic for your first fill up of oil. It's slippyness can interfere with your piston rings seating properly. You could change to synthetic safely at the the 500 mile mark.

By Nikolaj (213.197.4.54) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 02:24 am:

I used a full-synthetic for the tranny (Valvoline) and I have no troubles...
I also put it in the engine, and I had no more "black sludge" after a while, coming out the valve cover going into air filter. This I thought was a good sign. I also renew the oil often so I switched back to conventional (the money), and yes, I have the black sludge again....
What does this mean??
I had a feeling the engine was better with the synthetic, but that could be "in my head". I did check the level often in the beginning with the synthetic stuff, cause it gets into the smaller spaces that conventional oil does not reach... So I thought it was better, it just costs a lot..
I have a 1200....do I need to stick to the old and not worry so much about sludge, or should I get synthetic again on the next change???
Thanx

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.195) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 09:05 am:

Nikolaj, Well for that black sludge is the oil being affected by the combustion process and the oil is hydrocarbon based as is the by product of the combustion process. Synthetic is not really "oil" it's a synthetic lubricant that does not contain hydrocarbons therefore it does not get affected by the combustion process and any microscopic carbon based bits remain in the oil filter. This is how it was explained to me and it makes sence.
Well If I where you go back to synthetic but don't waste your money changing it so often. That is why it's so expensive its a longer lasting lubricant. It's good for 12 to 15000 miles. All you have to do it change the filter at your normal 3000mile interval and top up with the same synthetic to replenish any qualities it may have lost.
It probably is still shoving some oil vapour into your air breather it's just not black thats all. Do you have a catch can (barf jug)in the breather hose? That can prevent a lot of moisture and oil getting in there. Helps reduce carb icing greatly.
Another interesting thing I found is that when a car runs on natural gas, regular motor oil stays gold coloured even when its going into the drain pan! Could this because methane is more pure in its form and being a gas it doesn't require atomization? Less emissions I know as well.

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.195) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 09:05 am:

Nikolaj, Well for that black sludge is the oil being affected by the combustion process and the oil is hydrocarbon based as is the by product of the combustion process. Synthetic is not really "oil" it's a synthetic lubricant that does not contain hydrocarbons therefore it does not get affected by the combustion process and any microscopic carbon based bits remain in the oil filter. This is how it was explained to me and it makes sence.
Well If I where you go back to synthetic but don't waste your money changing it so often. That is why it's so expensive its a longer lasting lubricant. It's good for 12 to 15000 miles. All you have to do it change the filter at your normal 3000mile interval and top up with the same synthetic to replenish any qualities it may have lost.
It probably is still shoving some oil vapour into your air breather it's just not black thats all. Do you have a catch can (barf jug)in the breather hose? That can prevent a lot of moisture and oil getting in there. Helps reduce carb icing greatly.
Another interesting thing I found is that when a car runs on natural gas, regular motor oil stays gold coloured even when its going into the drain pan! Could this because methane is more pure in its form and being a gas it doesn't require atomization? Less emissions I know as well.

By david (208.130.246.92) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 11:35 am:

i have heard somewhere that you should not put synthetic oil in a new engine. you are sopposed to use regular for the first 500 miles or something. i could be wrong.

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.6) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 10:34 pm:

Yo David you missed a post above...covered that ; )
Yes you are correct for the above reason.

By david (65.3.173.180) on Saturday, March 31, 2001 - 11:59 pm:

mad mel, both me and paul live in oregon. it is very moderate climate here. what would putting 10-30 in hurt? i'd like to here what you think.
i have 4 quarts of valvilne vr1 racing oil in my garage. i'm picking up the mobile 1 filter too. like paul said i'm using 5-30 mobile 1 synthetic in my tranny. it shifts much smoother and quiker. i'll probably get a thicker oil when winter comes around. i don't think that $15 is that much money to spend twice a year.

By Mad Mel (161.184.41.199) on Sunday, April 01, 2001 - 09:59 pm:

In my humble (yet experianced ; ) oppinion it's to light a grade for an engine one pounds (has fun with) on. Daily drivers ran 10w 30/40 in 1978...shouldn't us enthusiasts be using something a wee bit more heavy duty? The only time I run 10W 30 is when its anywhere from -20 to -45...yes it gets DAMN cold where I came from. Fall and spring I run 10W 40. Summer 20W 50 as it does go upwards of 85. I am talking all conventional multigrades here. Synthetics are totaly different.

??? why a "thicker" oil in the colder weather? Thats backwards if I understand you correctly. A recommended light grade in the tranny is fine (especially if it's sythetic) all year round as long as shifting is OK.

I agreed a few posts back with Charles regarding syththetic in the tranny. What did you mean regarding "i don't think $15... twice a year."??

Does anyone know what the detergent properties of Racing Oil? It probably isn't meant for an everyday vehicle. I will try to find some info. Just wondering if a race oil can handle all the coking and byproducts from chugging around traffic??

By david (208.130.246.67) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 12:59 am:

mad mel, what do you run in the winter?
i guess your right about the oil thing. it would make sense that you would use thinner oil in the winter months, but i swear i've heard people say you should get thicker oil in wintertime(doesn't mean a thing).
with the twice a year thing i was refering to it costing $15 for 3 quarts of mobile 1 syn 5-30 and that i would change it twice a year.
i doubt the valvoline racing oil i bought a baxters is real hardcore racing oil. i was just saying that because i could take it back and get a different weight if i wanted too. aren't most new oils non-detergent anyways?

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.29) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 02:16 pm:

Yo David, Read the whole post bud! minus 20 to minus 45 is very winter! Just an explanation about the "grade" of oil. The first "W" number in a multigrade is the cold rated viscosity (it needs to be low for an engine to roll over and make oil pressure ASAP when first started) the second number is the hot rated viscosity. The higher the second number the higher the resistance to heat and mechanical breakdown. Yea who ever told you that a heavier "thicker" oil is to be used in the cold months is very wrong. I actually burned up a starter form trying to start her with 20W 50 when we went from a balmy freezing point in the fall to minus 30 somethin. SO thick oil is not good in the cold. Drained it and put in 10W 30 and it fired right up after a couple grunts to push the 20 50 out of the galleries & pump.

As I stated before if you are running full synthetic it's good all year round with a lighter grade. The second "hot" number must not need to be as high for syn as it has superior break down resistance over conventional multigrades.

In Arctic regions many run semi or full synthetic and you can now get 0W 40 for such use. Makes oil pressure fairly quickly at -50. Less stress on the starter as well. Before I bought my latest 1200, it spent most of it's life in the Arctic actually. It has a block heater, tranny heater, and a battery warmer on it! Looked funny with three cords hanging out ther front.

LOL Change the oil only twice a year...Oh OK forgot most people don't oput the miles on like I do. I drove her about 55,000 last year! I understood now!!

By kenche (130.212.237.172) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 02:20 pm:

Thanks for all of your input. And I will try to put regular 10-40 into my new rebuilt eng. and redline 10-40 in my trans. After 500 miles I will upgrade or just replace the motor oil again. Is this sound right?

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 02:26 pm:

Oh Ken,
"OEM" just means Genuine Honda parts. I'm not sure what the actual letters stand for. Original Equipment... something?

By Anonymous (209.91.124.100) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 04:29 pm:

Ken,

DO NOT use a synthetic oil in your new engine until it is well broken in. Today's syn oils have some fantanstic friction reducers included in the basic package, but I have seen an engine destroyed because the rings did not seat poperly because of using a synth from up initial startup.(it was in a CDN$25,000 Cummins industrial engine on an oil field package we built for Chevron, the field guys did it, and voided the engine waranty!!)

After the engine is broken in, depending on environment, a 10w30 should do you. More (viscosity) is not necessarily better. Only go to a thicker oil if you notice the oil pressure dropping at idle on a hot day. A standard virgin oil grade should be suitable, but if a synthetic is what you want, I have had success with the Castrol Syntec in my turbo Omni (an engine that is VERY hard on the oil, the turbo can actually over heat the oil in that thing without overheating the engine, Mel, yes I know an oil cooler is required, but whatever)

Also, if you have not replaced all the dynamic lip seals in a rebuild, a synthetic can cause oil leaks because typically they have more "detergent" type qualities, and by removing deposits, oil leaks can spring up. Found this out when I loaded my old small block chevy up with Royal Purple last year. Great oil, if you can live with the leaks!

Basically, for initial start up, use a standard oil, chnge it out after 500-1000 km, and then run it until your next scheduled o/c about 3000 km after. after the 3000 km, you should be OK for a synth if you wish. It should be noted that in my opinion, Mobil 1 is highly overrated, but that is for you to decide. Just keep an eye on it. Use a quality filter (like the WIX available from UAP NAPA) and you will be OK.

By ken che (166.90.37.133) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 10:41 pm:

Thanks a lot and I will use regular 10-40 for the first couple of thousands miles.

By Mad Mel (161.184.40.116) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 10:42 pm:

Kenche you got it...have fun!

OEM - Original Equipment Manufacturer ...HONDA in our case. Many aftermarket filter companies subcontract with manufacturing plants. An OEM filer for a Ford could be a Fram as they made filters for Ford. But that changes year to year I am sure.
For those folks in Canadian tire. The store brand is actually a Fram. (you will notice the Fram PH part numbers on them as well)


Yo Anonymous (is that Brian?)...we covered a lot that in the posts above but thanks for the "Expensive" example to drive the point home. Like some guys I knew who put Chromemolly rings in a chrome cylinder on an aircraft engine!!! That was not only costly but endangered several people.

Just because you maintain oil pressure at idle does not mean that at 8,000 RPM the oil is doing it's job "everywhere" in the engine. In your non oilcoolerd turbo for example! ; ) Ya kinda made my point there!

Never worried to much about brand name in an oil myself as long as it was a quality oil. I think Esso was the first to offer 0W 40 (for damn cold climates) but I am sure everyone else will soon. Can Tires oils (not sure about the recyled "Nugold") are made by Esso last I heard.

By Charles R. (64.170.157.148) on Monday, April 02, 2001 - 10:45 pm:

OEM= Original Equipment Manufacturer.

By Anonymous (209.91.124.100) on Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 08:21 am:

Randy,

Yeah it is I, Brian. FYI, that piston slap I had in the Omni when you were last here finally did it in. Broke a oil ring land on piston #3. When re-building an engine, don't use marginal used cast stock pistons when running 15 PSI boost into a 2.2L Dodge kids. Sold it to a guy out of Sask for what I had into it and picked up a '97 Civic CX hatch. Once I get the '77 up and running, I can get the wife out of the tempo and into a REAL car!! Honda themselves don't recommend running synth oil until 20,000 km (TnT honda would not put the Royal Purple in when I picked up the '97, said it would void the waranty, whatever that means. It's got 90,000 km on it so I don't understand)

TTL

By Mad Mel ; P (161.184.40.132) on Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 04:24 pm:

Hey Brain. Sorry to hear the 2.2 burped some pieces out! Yes Honda would recommend that on the new stuff but remember they WANT us to wear out our cars so we will buy new ones in the future!! All the new engines use low tension piston rings now anyways don't they? They seat in well under 1000km's. 20,000 doesn't make any sence...I gotta ask em why. TnT is gonna get some pain in the ass enthusiast asking some questions soon ; ) He He He!!! Get any snow in Calgary? We got almost two feet!!! Woo Hoo!!! I think that white bump out there is my civic!

By Anonymous (209.91.124.100) on Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 07:35 am:

Randy,

Yeah we got about a foot and a half of the white stuff, and yes, I am heading up to TnT this afternoon, and I will be beating them up on the oil issue.

TTL

Brian