By Nikolaj (213.197.4.61) on Tuesday, July 03, 2001 - 07:28 pm:

These were held all last weekend on a circuit near Amsterdam. I was, and still am, frustrated about the fact that my first gen wasn't driveable, but it seemed a 87 CRX was an exception allready. I saw too many NSX's, Integra R's, S2000's... But ONE first gen. It was completely restored in original automatic condition. I went over and talked to the guy, who was a mechanic at HONDA, and so thought he had to take on an arrogant attitude towards someone who's interested. I found this to be the case with most people, especially as their cars get more expensive and the crowd gathers. Kids 19 years old, who have VTEC CRX's just for showtime, drive Accord/Integra type R's as a daily driver.. Sometimes I wonder where the hell it's all coming from, might it have something to do with most of the world being hungry?? Anyway, I just found that most are anti-enthousiasts, who have a car to be seen, and are not interested in the technical part, it's the HP that counts... Oh yeah, not to forget, how many seconds to 100kmh..
So it's the man with the biggest pocket that steals the show, and there were plenty of egotrippers trying their best.. So the first gen guy I talk to, gives me these cold answers as I ask away at him (he did know some stuff, and I don't meet such a person on a yearly basis) about the car, and tell him he can make a kick-ass car out of it. Off course he wanted to keep it stock, and automatic, hey it's your life, but when we talk about upgrading, he tells me about all the stuff I have lying around not being available! When I answer almost every part with "that's on mine..", mention some things I want to do, ask if he has some parts, he just turns colder. He is apparently annoyed by my questioning and knowledge, he rather goes back to the awwwwwing audiende who go "Oh that's a sweet car.....what is it?" So to me it's 90% show-off, and no matter if these people have souped-up Integra's, turbocharged civics, race-prepped NSX's... they will never know what it feels like to actually enjoy their cars the way we do. If they know something, they suddenly act like it's a national secret what they did, and they don't care about what you did...it's not about you, if you know what I mean. Hey it wasn't all bad....! The whole CRX crowd, and that was a big one, seemed to be more into their car, and I found out lots about them. I also competed in a sprint with my 87CRX, was knocked out by a VTEC! The whole thing was won by some civic with IntegraR + supercharger engine... We rounded the circuit (that was cooooool) and some guys couldn't help themselves and parked their car in the gravel.

Now I wanna know... Is this a typical dutch attitude or is it an international disease which leaves this auto-enthousiast frustrated????? It is such a different attitude from the one people have on this board (some exceptions over the years, off course). I have gotten more out of this board than out off all those meetings or whatever all together. I don't know how we all got here, but praise to everyone here contributing. Especially the expert guys, who could've easily kept everything their secret.

Many thanks to all.....

By Todd (63.52.20.56) on Wednesday, July 04, 2001 - 09:42 am:

Its not just a Dutch thing. Anyone can dump a pile of money into a new car, bolt on all the trendy add-ons and have a nice car. I prefer to use 1/6 of the money and build a functional (though not as pretty) racer that out performs them in all ways. I get more satisfaction that way. Besides, I'm too mature to want everybody to "LOOK AT ME".

By DA (61.9.128.142) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 03:32 am:

I rarely come across people with that sort of attitude, although there was one guy who tried to sell me a rusted up RS exhaust and header (chopped) for $80 who got very annoyed when I commented on the condition. I don't think that this attitude is confined to any subject in particular either.

Todd,
A Civic IS a nice car but I don't know if you can get it to out perform the newer Hondas even with enormous work. For most people it's not worth the investment, at least with the current models you can recover some or most of the cost of the parts you have because of the aftermarket size. Also, not everyone is interested in making a racer with parts that cost more than the car itself - myself included. I love my 1200 but I don't kid myself that I can keep up with an ITR, S2000, or NSX - modded or not. I just love it for what it is, a fun little city car that's cheap to run and is a competitive low speed racer.

One last thing, does anyone know if 2:00 is a good time around Winton for a stock 1200? I only know some S2000 and ITR guys were running in the low 1:40's - I was the only 1200.

By Todd (63.52.20.194) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 12:51 pm:

No disrespect intended DA, But I do have a 1200 that will blow away a stock ITR.

By Nikolaj (213.197.4.129) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 01:25 pm:

Todd, I would've liked to have been there with you and your car...is it really a non-turbo 1200? However, there will always be someone with a much bigger pocket who will go faster... Hey, I don't mind, just don't get an attitude because of it! I enjoy seeing the things they spent so much to GET built.

But there is something called driving sensation, and it is not measured in tenths of seconds, BHP, or whatever. My old civic is soooo much fun to drive, and that's what counts to me.
Also, when people in the neighbourhood ask what kind of engine is in the car, and they believe it must be a much bigger engine or sumtin, they are stunned to see the lil 1200 layin in there! "But I saw you pulling up the other day and the thing went like crazy..." That's enough for me, I don't care how many seconds to 100, the car obviously leaves a healthy impression and with my kind of budget, it is a true artform.

By DA (61.9.128.142) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 07:18 pm:

Todd,

It's nice to know that some people are still willing to build a 1200 to the extreme, however until you offer proof of blowing away ITR's in everythying then please do not enhance your ego (and others) by boldly stating things such as this.

I do believe you have a very worked 1200 that would probably leave an ITR at an autocross and a small road course. You may also beat some ITR's in the 1/4 too if they're not good drivers - I don't dispute that, but then there's the question on how streetable your car is, chassis rigidity (no comparison), performance potential left, etc. So you can't really compare, let alone state your 1200 is better at everything.

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.171) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 08:54 pm:

For the $25k that they are spending on an ITR, many of us on the board could build a car with all the characteristics that you stated above. I could do it for under $5k.

Oh, and I don't think you should pick the Civic 1200 as the subject of your criticism. I think this is the wrong crowd to make such statements around.

Remeber that we are all car fans here and this is a friendly bunch of guys (and gals?) on this discussion board.

Todd has been on this board since the beginning of time - Give him his diserved respect.

Please do not continue this arguement any farther. We have heard it many times before - yet we still stick to our 1200's. Carry on...

By DA (61.9.128.142) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 09:55 pm:

At what point did I pick on a 1200? Am I now the enemy because I merely stated that I believe Todd's car isn't as fantastic as he claims? Your attitude is just as bad as that described in the first post, you cannot accept any sort of criticism and revert to simplistic arguments to back your claims. I don't understand what your problem with my opinion is?

Perhaps if you had the opportunity to own both cars you would be more enlightened and realise the limitations of a 1200. You might find you'd get more enjoyment out of the car that way.

By Brian Wilborn (24.4.254.106) on Thursday, July 05, 2001 - 11:00 pm:

Dudes, chill out...it's just a hobby. Everybody has a right to brag about their car, whether it's a piece of shit or a million dollar race machine. Lets just all play nice and revere in whatever ride we've got.

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 09:23 am:

Todd is the nicest humble guy around. He does not NEED to embellish the truth. Todd is merely stating a simple fact, which has nothing to do with his ego. I'm sure that Todd does not need me to speak up for him, he is a big boy. DA, you have every right to express your opinion, but don't think that we are just going to sit here and let you take cheap shots at our brother.

BTW... do you guys remember a controversial thread called "I have a bone to pick"? Well I printed it before Richard deleted it... if anyone wants a copy, just email me. Now there was a classic.

By Todd (63.52.21.48) on Friday, July 06, 2001 - 06:46 pm:

Thanks everyone. As Rick stated, I am merely stating fact. My 1200 will outrun a stock ITR in the quarter mile and it regularly outdoes them on the autocross course. It will not outdo them on the road courses as it doesn't have enough top end. If it did, it wouldn't run in a different class. If I had 25k I would probably have an ITR in my driveway (ask Tsuyoshi he has both), but I don't so I make the best with what I have. My ego doesn't need to prove anything, I know I'm telling the truth and that's enough for me.

By Nikolaj (213.197.5.218) on Saturday, July 07, 2001 - 01:47 am:

Well, this was not what I intended. If anything, I thought it would bring us closer together...! Now it looks like there's a little difference in opinion being blown up out of proportion. Come on, you guys, this is how they start wars and %^$#&, so cool it...
As for the ITR-vs-civic, coming close to one in any department deserves respect.

By Mdouglas (Mdouglas) (199.72.111.49) on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 08:03 am:

First off, we all have fun with our cars.

Todd does have a couple fast 1200s. I've seen them, I race with him, I've driven them. His is a little faster than mine, and we both constantly run in the top 10 fastest out of all 150+ cars at most autocrosses we participate in. Even when the cars have issues and don't have the 'perfect' day.

We get as much satisfaction from building our cars as we do racing them. Todd has been a great help to me also.

My 1200 currently holds the class record in GT5 at the Beech Mountain Hillclimb. I beat the previous record by 3 seconds in May 2001. What fun that was! It's not everyday that you have a nice twisty mountain road all closed off for you to run as fast as you can from the bottom to the top - Legally!

You should see how we've turned heads at the local drag strip tearing down the 1/8th neck and neck to a photo finish. Posting times much better than most n/a cars at the strip.

I want a CTR or City Turbo myself, but I don't think I'll ever own a car that's so much a blast to drive as my 1200.

Wanna see us? Autocross this Sunday (July 15th) at the Greensboro, NC coliseum, and Drag wars at Farmington Dragway (Winston Salem, NC - 1/8th mile) Friday July 20th.

By John S. (209.223.82.174) on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 11:14 am:

DA,
The Civic I'm driving now, I origionally paid 300.00US dollars for it twelve years ago, and drove it home. Knock on wood...it's still going strong. As far as I'm concerned it has already outperformed damn near all of them. When someone passes me in a late model car and looks down at it and me, I just think to my self...they should only hope to be so lucky.

By Mike S (202.12.233.21) on Thursday, July 12, 2001 - 08:50 pm:

DA

2:00 around Winton (long circuit) is OK for a 1200. I've done about a 1:58 (couple of years ago). Short circuit (not that it gets used much these days) - about 1:20. Doing another sprint there on 18 August (Sprintski). You entered?

By DA (61.9.128.142) on Thursday, July 12, 2001 - 10:17 pm:

I'm going back up in December so we'll see what I'll get (Honda sponsored day). I'll change the tire pressures as I had 24psi - first time ever on the track with my Civic. That 2:00 was also done with completely worn shocks (I've been told they're dangerouse and leak a little, it's a beater). What condition is/was your car in when you did the 1:58?

Which car does a 1:20? I know most of the S2000 and ITR guys cruise round in the 1:40 range and I haven't checked what the NSX's do.

What about times down at Calder? I didn't go this year as it's a pretty boring track in the Civic.