By Jacob (12.111.187.217) on Tuesday, August 07, 2001 - 04:45 pm:

Hey all, been a while since I've posted.
"Fighter" my '76 1200 is down to bare metal, the interior's bare short of the dash, and I have the motor torn apart in my garage.

My question is, I want to make it into a 1300 stroker. I have yet to see a 1300 CVCC. I've searched many boneyards with no such luck. Please do not tell me this is a non-US car. I was wondering though, is it possible to put a 1500 CVCC crank in the 1200? I read on a different discussion board of a guy who just bought a '78 1200. The guy he bought it from claimed that it was a 1.2L motor with the crankshaft from a 1500. I told him it was likely a 1300 crank, but then began to wonder about the difference between the 1300 CVCC and the 1500 CVCC.

Also, I am going to turbocharge this car. I'm in no hurry, and am going to do all of it myself (within reason). I've discovered that it is likely going to require a fuel injection conversion. Do you have any suggestions on what I should pull the EFI unit off of? I was thinking a mid-80's to mid-90's Civic with 4 cyl. I don't even know what sizes, I think from a 1.5-1.8L maybe? What do you think?

The carbeurated (sp?) turbo sounded like way too much custom work. Not that an EFI conversion isn't a lot of custom work, but I prefer EFI anyway.

Anyway, your thoughts and comments are always very much appreciated.
Later

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.96) on Tuesday, August 07, 2001 - 05:31 pm:

Yes, the 1300 saw available in the US. They can be found on '80 to '83 hatchbacks. Maybe more... As for the turbo: Yes, I would only do it with EFI. There are carbed turbos out there, but then again, there are also automatic transmissions on Hondas - people will try anything! Hehe. Stock Honda EFI is not ready for a turbo, so all the fuel regulators and black boxes will make it work, but maybe not to your liking. If you are serious about performance you'll want a programable EFI setup like DFI, Motec, or Electromotive. But these toys don't come cheap. Have you considered the City Turbo? These setups are a lot cheaper than retrofitting something to the EB engine. Turbocharging a newer Honda EFI engine will also be cheaper. Everything about turboing an EB will be custom. A turbo for a d16 is a phone call away. Just some thoughts... Good luck.

By Jacob (12.111.187.230) on Tuesday, August 07, 2001 - 11:19 pm:

I know what years to find the 1300 in, I just can't. I've checked the classifieds everyday, many salvage yards, and I check out every single one of these cars I see driving along and no 1300's. I guess I'll just keep looking.

Yeah, I know that the newer honda motors will take well to a turbo. I actually just read an article today about a couple of guys who turbo'd a stock B16A for under $900. They used mostly parts from the "boneyard." And with 6 lbs of boost, no intercooler and a non-programmable ECU they came up with 241 ponies under the hood. Just think about intercooler, higher boost and a programmable ECU... it's beautiful.

Anyway, I've thought about the City Turbo, but too easy (I think). But, I would be interested in any information on the City Turbo such as availability and sources for availability.

The entire idea behind this EB Turbo was to have a car that nobody else has, and to learn as much as I can about Fuel Injection and Turbocharging. I want to try to do all of the work myself (within reason), and have a really tight (unique) little car when I'm done. In the mean time I'm kicking around buying one of the racing motors that are for sale on the Dr. Zoom discussion board. Just until the Turbo thing plays out.

Thanks for the info.
Later

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.215) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 07:57 am:

Wow, 1300 engines are not hard to come by here in eastern Washington. I have a local yard that would let me pull a shortblock (of unknown condition) for $65. But after shipping and the price of my time I'm sure you could find one cheaper elsewhere. Yeah, I totally agree about the turbo EB engine. It would be very unique and it would be a lot of fun to put together.

By Jacob (12.111.187.239) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 04:15 pm:

Where abouts in Washington are you? I'm near Bend Oregon for the summer, I go to school in Corvallis during the rest of the year. And I have family in Maple Valley, near Bellevue and Issaquah.

$65.00 for a short block? I'd snatch that up in a second. If they're common up there, then I should be able to find at least one down here.
I'll just keep looking.

I'm thinking the Fuel Injection system off of a 1.5L or a 1.6L Honda would work well. What do you think?

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.111) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

I live in eastern Washington. I'll likely be heading to the yard within a week. I'll see what I can find. I figure that if I have the time to grab one I might try to do it.

Using stock Honda EFI sounds tempting. I've been dreaming of a turbo EB for a while now... One thing you'll have to deal with is making a custom intake manifold. There are no stock EFI manifolds that bolts up. You'd then have to rig up all the sensors. I'm not sure what to do about all the electronics in the newer distributors. I suppose you could still use the stock EB ignition or an EN electronic ignition, but what about the crank (or was it camshaft) angle sensor that is in the d16 and b16 distributors? What will the stock Honda ECU do without it? Anyway, I'm babbling. I'll look at the d16 and EB motors I have in the garage...

By Charles (152.91.9.15) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 08:23 pm:

The city turbo management and manifolds almost bolt onto the EJ1300 cvcc engine. Do a search there has been much discussion. It is like having a Honda factory turbo with Honda reliability and drivability but it would fly. Once you have built a good motor it would cost around $600-1000US for the turbo injection hardware to suit.

By Jacob (12.111.187.6) on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 03:49 pm:

I was thinking a FI off of an '84-'87 Honda, I don't even know if they're fuel injection actually. But, I would not think that the early fuel injection units would be all that complicated. I could be wrong though.

I'm actually looking forward to making the manifolds myself. I think I will learn a lot, and if they don't work quite right, I'll try again.

Later Ya'll

By Jacob (12.111.187.3) on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 12:17 pm:

I just called 21 different salvage yards in the Bend, Redmond, Portland, Eugene, and Vancouver area and came up with 2(!) 1300cvcc motors (they had a lot of 1500's). A guy in Redmond has one that ran well when pulled (many many years ago) but he can only sell me the entire engine for $200. I found a U-Pull-it place in Vancouver that will sell me a short block for $75. That's quite a drive from here. But, I'll do it if I have to.

I also talked to a guy that told me that the earlier 1500cc Honda civics (mid 80's, 3rd gen) were a Throttle Body Fuel Injection (the 1600's were MPI). I would think that this would be a fairly simple swap, you'd just have to set up the sensors. I don't think the ignition system would need to be effected at all. As it may have to be with the Multi Port systems mentioned above by Tim. Though we could also be wrong about the MPI systems.

I'm thinking this TBI thing is the way to go. I'm going to start looking into this. Just thought I would keep you all posted, and if anybody has a 1300 crank and rods taking up space.... I'm interested.

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.202) on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

I hope you can go pull that engine. I saw a couple at the yard yesterday, but it would have taken me half a day in the 95 degree heat to pull one. And the yard is 80 miles away from my house...
About that TBI injection: When you go to the yard check one of these cars out. I would go more for the 88-91 mpfi. I think it is the simplest setup. Look under the hood of a TPI car and it looks like somebody threw a big bowl of spaghetti in there. There are so many wires and vacuum hoses! I was looking at a couple yesterday and could not believe the complexity. I don't want to discourage you, I just think that the mpfi path is the better one. Besides, there are lots of cool things you can do with mpfi. Have you seen the zdyne ECU's? They go in place of the stock ECU, but are completely programable. www.zdyne.com

By errol (152.163.213.62) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 07:41 am:

GUYS, GUYS... You're missing something GREAT! Those 1300 that you found Jacob...Look at the tranny! Is it a GJxxxxxxx on the identifying 'tape'/cable pull clutch/1980 on vin tag inside the doorjam?? If it is GRAB IT (with axles) that's the one to HAVE!!

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.168) on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 10:16 am:

Yup, I saw two of those. I have no use for them, and no time to pull them. But feel free to come to Eastern Washington and pull them! There's a wagon with nothing missing and a '75 with rebuildable struts, but they want $90 US for the struts. It's a shame to see all the first and second gens they crush here.

By Jacob (12.111.187.9) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 09:24 am:

Question for Tim on fuel injection. When you typed TBI did you mean to type TPI? I'm basing most of my knowledge on Chevy's here. But, my pickup is TBI, it looks like a Carbie motor with a couple more wires (literally, but less vacuum lines) and not cold blooded. The MPFI and TPI on Chevy 350's look like a guy threw a wire bomb in the engine compartment? I had never intended on TPI (Tuned Port Injection) I figured the TBI (Throttle Body Injection) would be the easiest to swap.

I would ideally like to use the MPFI system, I just know how simple my TBI is on my truck, and figured it would be just as simple on the Civics, apparently I'm wrong.

Back to the MPFI drawing board.

errol...... why (on transmission)? give me some specifics.

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.132) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 12:50 pm:

Jacob, sorry for the confusion - it was a typo. I meant TBI. Yeah, I know what you're talking about with the Chevy TBI - they seem pretty simple. The complexity I noticed really wasn't unique to the TBI cars, it is really just a characteristic of all Honda cars from '84 to '87. Whether they have a carburetor, TBI or MPFI, looking under the hood is about enough to make you sick. By contrast, my '88 CRX dx has dual point EFI (basically TBI) and it is very clean under the hood. The MPFI (Si model) is almost exactly the same - just a few different wires and a MPFI intake manifold. But the MPFI just makes about 10 more HP, so a lot of guys switch over to the Si MPFI parts. It's a pretty simple swap and I'm told it noticably increases power (hence the 10 hp estimate). So... I still think MPFI is the way to go. And like you said - making the manifold would be pretty cool. Sure the end results will be great, but it's what you learn along the way that really counts. What do you learn with bolt on parts? How to drain your wallet I guess. Heck, I'm putting in a d16 for less money than it would have cost me to rebuild my EB. Not to mention the several hundred hours of fun involved. Err, fun?

By Todd (63.52.7.252) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 12:59 pm:

The tranny in question is the famed 4.93 5-speed. Make sure if it does have a GJ that it is a 5-speed. This box has the good ratios for 1st-3rd, and has very high 4th and 5th making it the best tranny for the street.

By Hondahead (24.67.176.212) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:55 pm:

Is the GJ 5spd the same as the GN 5spd?

By Todd (63.52.4.53) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 06:34 pm:

Nope.

By Jacob (12.111.187.197) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 09:42 pm:

I spent all that time hunting for a 1300 then the only 2nd gen I see today in Bend (Oregon) is a 1300 w/ 5spd. I almost cried.

By errol (205.188.195.199) on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 09:55 pm:

I've been looking for about 7 years (although not 'that hard') and this guy I've built a motor for finds one in about 1 hour on the phone! (DOOgh) I did find one that runs and he wants 400.00 for it and i'm thinking on buying it and swaping trannys and selling it to make the $ back. YOu guys would cry at all the parts I've thrown away before I found this site! GET THAT TRANNY FOR YOURSELF! or both and sell the next one for profit! I'm sure one of these guys would buy it!

By Hondahead (24.67.176.212) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 08:51 am:

My 78 1200 has an 82 EN1 with a hondamatic.I have all I need to convert to manual and am wonder which box to use.My choices are 74 4spd,79 4spd and 82 5spd.(I have all three already)Which one is best?I'm more interested in get up and go than in fuel economy and top speed.

By Jacob (12.111.187.231) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:00 pm:

I believe your best bet all around is the '82 5 speed. This information is only based upon what I've discovered from this board.

On the 2nd gen 1300 I saw the other day. I was parked next to it in a parking lot, it wasn't at a salvage yard.

The 5 spd that errol was raving about, is this only in the 1300, or can I find it in the 1500 also.

Also while I was on the phone I priced an '89 1500 civic full TBI setup. He said he'd sell me the TBI unit, the sensors, wiring, and ECU for $175 (US). But, now I'm liking the MPI, so I'll have to call and price one of those.

By Jacob (12.111.187.231) on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:20 pm:

Well ya'll, Here's my turbo setup that I'm going to start building.

*EB2 motor w/1300 crank/rods,
*EB3 pistons (unless I can find forged),
*EB3 head (not shaved),
*Aiming for about a 7.5:1 compression,
*MPI, or TBI off of 88-91 Civic (probably MPI)
*Programmable ECU (I'll wait a bit if I can)
*Factory exhaust manifold, and run a short pipe from manifold to turbo about 8" (prevents having to make new exhaust manifold),
*A T25 turbo off of eclipse/talon, though I'm also kicking around a IHI (or KKK, don't recall) turbo off of the earlier 1.8 Subaru turbo's, they're pretty small allowing very quick spool up and probably plenty for a 1.3.
*The BOV off of Talon/eclipse/laser, eventually upgraded,
*Manual Boost Controller,
*A Vortech FMU,
*1/2" fuel lines (would like your thoughts on size)
*High pressure fuel pump
*Cut down an early IC from Volvo, can go across full front end of Civic right under bumper (I believe 30-34" wide) about six inches tall and 4-5" deep.
*I figure the turbo will sit off to the right of the motor, kind of behind the radiator.
*I plan on mounting the battery behind the rear seat (Optima).
*I'll have to put baffles in the gas tank so as to prevent air bubbles in the line (OK with carb's, not with FI)
*2.25" exhaust with the first couple of feet (and manifold) wrapped to keep exhaust speed.
*24" glass pack where factory silencer sits, and a turbo muffler out the back.
*And of course the appropriate gauges to monitor the beautiful system.

I figure it'll take me a couple of years to finish the whole turbo thing. The rest of the car should be finished long before then. Does anybody see any flaws.
Tell me what you think.
Later

By Todd (63.52.4.56) on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 08:48 am:

Hondahead, The 74 box is best for get up and go. Be prepared to have a top speed of only about 90 mph.
Jacob, The 5-speed with the 4.93 diff only came in the 1300 not 1500.

By Tom (203.109.252.12) on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 07:01 pm:

Is anyone running turbo carby setups? how difficult would this be to setup and how expensive, just low boost, nothing crazy.

By Jacob (12.111.187.24) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 04:27 pm:

I was going that direction, but I read that the internal pressure will shut off the needle valve in the carb. So, sounded like a good way to justify Fuel Injection. So that's what I'm doing, if you find any information, I'd be more than happy if you'd share it.

By Go4mo (Go4mo) (24.69.255.204) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 07:45 pm:

hey all ..
i blew up my 1200, and so am now prepared to swap in a 1300 from an 83 civic ... (haven't looked at the head of the old EB3 yet, but if it's good, it's going to don ..)

the new engine is an EN1 with of course the matching 5 speed tranny (which needs a rebuild)

the car i'm pulling it from was actually quite well maintained, (except the honda specialized rusty shock mounts)... but i think i've found an easier swap (ie.. not having to pull the whole thing first ..) so, if anyone is looking for bits, or the whole car, .. let me know ..
i'm in vancouver b.c. .. if you're in washington and want it, i'll drive it down to you ...
mo

By Tom (203.109.252.15) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 09:41 pm:

Jacob, if your going to do fuel injection id recommend reading 21st Century Performance by Julian Edgar, it covers EFI in detail among many other things.

By Jacob (12.111.187.16) on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 07:45 am:

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into it.

By kdbaker (64.111.167.174) on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 06:09 pm:

How can i get a honda city turbo motor?And is there a swap for a 73 to make the bolt pattern 4x100.Thanks,Ken.

By barry mcfarlane (168.132.10.2) on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 08:35 pm:

Jacob, If you are planning to make your own manifold, have a look at this URL http://www.sdsefi.com/techinta.htm Barry

By Jacob (12.111.187.10) on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 02:28 pm:

That's awesome! Very detailed. I'm going to have to pick up that book by Julian Edgar, and start designing this bad boy.

One question Why is the oversized tube that the Throttle Body, and injection runners spur off of so large?

Later ya'll

By Anonymous (63.14.218.39) on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 03:18 pm:

hey there is a company in california that can biuld you a nice alum manifold called cilford performance in fact they build injection setups cusomt ground cams headers ask for Jack i cant find the number right now. but they built lot of stuff for me

By Jacob (12.111.187.30) on Sunday, August 26, 2001 - 09:29 am:

I would be very interested in talking to them, if you could find te number that would be great.

General curiosity, what did they build for you?

By Anonymous (63.10.134.66) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 01:11 am:

hey i finally found that info here is their web page. http://www.cliffordperformance.com/, you can get their numbers off the page jack is the owner tell him john stallone sent you. they built me headers, cams, heads, 1,000cfm MPI for my jeep all kinds off manifolds and carb set ups for different foreign cars i have owned they know their stuff give em a ring. they love to talk shop and new challenges. hope its not to late for the info