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By Aaron Neumann (24.76.50.199) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 10:05 am:

Thank you all for helping.

I've done a search and come up with much information but need some clarification.

I have a 1978 Civic 1200 HB. Due to toasted struts I need to replace I figured I would upgrade the struts, springs & brakes and do a 100PCD conversion all at the same time.

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE FOUND. PLEASE TELL ME IF I AM INCORRECT!!!

Here is my confusion. Everyone talks about 2nd Gen stuff and this and that. I know that '80-83 Civic is 2nd Gen. But '80-83 Accord is 1st Gen correct? Anyways, I'll use the years to avoid confusion.

Also is an upright the same as a strut? Does it include the knuckle? What is a drive flange? Is that the knuckle?

I understand that '80-83 Civic upright will bolt up. With that the 84-87 Accord/Prelude rotors and caliper will bolt up too. I could use 80-83 Accord but they are not as big and I would be stuck with 120 PCD. Is the 80-83 Civic brakes same size as 80-83 accord?

Do I use the 80-83 CV shafts?

The 80-83 Civic & Accord are 120PCD. If I go with 84-87 Accord/Prelude rotors they have 100PCD studs mounted on the rotor. This rotor will bolt right up to the 80-83 Civic upright/knuckle/spindle whatever.

If I'm usings 80-83 Civic uprights I can fit 84-87 Accord/prelude springs in them to stiffen the ride.

Please tell me if this is all correct. Any other parts I'm missing?

Thank you again,

Aaron Neumann
aaronneumann@home.com

By Aaron Neumann (24.76.50.199) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 10:10 am:

Oh yah,

I live in B.C., Canada if that makes a difference.

Also, when people say EB or EN upright what the heck is that refering to? Is this relevant to my issues?

Aaron

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.77) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 11:18 am:

Okay Aaron, it looks like you need a lot of things cleared up. I will try to help with some. First off, don't use the 80-83 uprights! Adrian from Australia says this is a very bad way to go. It messes up suspension geometry. Since you are in North America you are in luck. Use the front knuckles from a first gen civic wagon (up to 79). These have a caliper mounting bolt pattern needed for the newer and better calipers. As for springs you should only be looking at first gen Civics. Just about everything else has bigger diameter springs. You will use your stock first gen axles, but then put second gen (80-83) cv joints on the ends. This is because you will be joining into a new 4x100 hub. I personally don't remember which hub to use... 80-83 civics don't have 4x120, they have 4x100. An EB upright will come from a first gen civic (73-79) and an EN upright will come from a second gen (80-83). Oh, and when I say upright I mean the knuckle - the big chunck of metal that connects the strut, control arm, steering, and hub all together. But the main moral of the story that I want to stress is not to use the 80-83 knuckles. Good luck.

By Aaron Neumann (24.76.50.199) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 11:58 am:

Well first off I should note that I would be extremely lucky to locate anything from a Wagon as they are very rare. Any other options? If not then these are my options:

I need to get a new/used/rebuilt set of stock struts - they can't be upgrades with newer models. I could put front springs in the rear and wagon springs in the front (IF i can find them) to get a stiffer ride.

When you say 2nd gen 80-83 CV joint end is that from an Accord/prelude or Civic or does it matter? This new CV will allow 100PCD hub to bolt up (Anyone know what hub works??).

I need a wagon knucke/upright in the front so that the 84-87 accord/prelude calipers will bolt up.

Now what about in the rear - will the 100PCB drum brake hub (need year) just bolt up to the stock upright?

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.227) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:32 pm:

Ok, here we go (yet again)...

For this explanation:
EB = 1st gen CIVIC (73 - 79)
EN = 2nd gen CIVIC (80 - 83)
upright/knuckle = the bit that the strut (shock), steering arm, lower control arm, CV joint connect to.
drive flange = the bit with the wheel studs in it (some might think of it as the hub).
strut = shock/spring.

BRAKES.

Front:
Uprights - If you can find some US 78-79 1st gen wagon uprights use them otherwise use standard EB uprights. If using normal EB uprights get some caliper brackets from Anthony (hobbyhorse05@hotmail.com). They will be about AU$200 + shipping.
CV joints - Use EN CV joints on EB drive shafts (knock off EB CVs and knock on the EN ones).
Drive flange - Use EN ones. There was talk a while ago that there are differences between 80 (and posibly 81) drive flanges and 82-83 ones. I've used 82 model ones and they work just fine. Press out EB drive flange, press out bearings, press in new bearings (good idea as chances are the old bearings are stuffed). Countersink the four holes in the outer grease seals and get countersunk bolts to hold them on. Press EN drive flanges in.
Rotors - 88-91 CRX or 90-91 (or thereabouts) Civic.
Calipers - If using CRX rotors use equivalent year CRX calipers or 84-86 Accord or Prelude calipers (or a few others I can't think of at the moment.) If using the Civic rotors use calipers from the same model (the Civic rotors are slightly thicker and larger diameter (about 4mm from memory) than the CRX rotors so you need the calipers to match them).
Brake hoses - EN.

That's it. Once you have all that just bolt it together.

Rear:
Use drums and backing plates from an EN. Hatch are 180mm, wagon are 200mm. Use whichever you prefer. Stub axles (standard EB) need to be slightly modified to take the drums (I can get them for you for about AU$200 + shipping). Once modified they take standard EN bearings. Put a 5mm spacer behind the backing plate and redrill the mounting holes in the backing plate to the EB pattern. Bolt them on.

That's it. Once you have all the bits it's several hours work to put it all together.

STRUTS
How much money do you want to spend? What you can do depends entirely on your budget.

By Don (209.181.52.102) on Wednesday, August 08, 2001 - 05:49 pm:

Just a note: Charles Roberts has a complete brake conversion with all the parts including rims. He mentioned last weekend He was going to place it on E-bay soon. Keep your eyes open.

By Todd (63.52.4.77) on Thursday, August 09, 2001 - 04:34 am:

Everyone PRINT THIS THREAD!
Just for clarification, if you use 80-81 drive flanges (or hubs) you need to use 84-87 rotors/calipers. If you get the 82-83 flanges, you can use the 88-91 rotors/calipers. The difference is in the offset of the rotor.
For the rears, you can also have your EB drums welded up and redrilled to the 4x100 pcd.

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 09:30 am:

Hey Aaron, There is a 1976 wagon at a "Pick your Part" yard in Hayward, CA. The knuckle/uprights are still there, The left rotor is trash, the right one is good. I took the front struts/spring assemblies . Maybe you could talk one of the SF bay area guys to pull them for you (Brian Wilborn is a nice guy?). I would do it but I'm heading for the wilderness for a few weeks vacation. If they are still there when I get back I would be more than happy to snag 'em for you.

By Aaron Neumann (24.76.50.199) on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 09:50 am:

I spend last night pulling apart the components. Not much tension on the springs when you remove them from the struts - I was a bit concerned ;) Also found that one of my rotors was way too thin and that one of the spring perches was almost rusted off. Good thing I'm replacing this stuff...

Now that I know what I need my plan is to see what I can find on the weekend from local boneyards & private ads. I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks for all of the input!

By Todd (63.52.8.242) on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 11:40 am:

I have found that is almost as cheap to buy new rotors, calipers, and bearings. By the time you get the old parts, have them reconditioned, and installed, you have spent almost as much money and tons more time. And even then you still have reconditioned used parts.

By John S. (207.160.163.93) on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 02:37 pm:

I have to agree with Todd on that...I have tried going the cheap way and over time it usually costs you more money. Uprights used only...and unless you find a set of virtually new rotors, with tight bearings(rare) it's best to use new parts. That said, I'm still trying to find a wholesale source on the front bearings themselves.

By Tim Harding (Timh) (63.161.30.253) on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 10:14 pm:

John, get ahold of Justin. When I met up with him last weekend I couldn't believe it when he told me how cheap he was getting bearings. Yeah, I can't afford the conversion mainly because of the price of new bearings...

By John S. (207.160.161.163) on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:29 pm:

Todd,
Do you know the exact figures on offset differences between the different spindle/rotor combinations? Are the newer pieces bigger than the 84-87 parts?

By Todd (63.52.4.62) on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:34 pm:

No, I don't have exact specs. I know that the drive flange is the difference in which rotor/caliper combo you need. The offset is different and if I'm not mistaken, the bearing size is a little different. Charles R?

By Nikolaj (213.197.5.28) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:14 am:

Just wanna comment that Adrian is such a cool guy for all his patience in explaining the same thing over and over... You are a true angel to those mixed up after the search which now leads to more info than one can handle! Hey, maybe you should save that list and just paste it in every time, or is that what you're doing allready?? A few months ago you really cleared up the whole braking story for me, then also unknown with the words hub, flange and all... After that I found those 14inch 120PCD rims, which I don't have nuts for yet. Anyway, I also received my Koni WetKit, and I'm anxious to put it together with a spare set of front shockers I have left over. My question is (to anyone with these kits): How do I take the old shock apart?? It looks like the covering plate is welded on, but this could be due to time! And if so, do I have to thread the old shocks myself?? And when I do put the things together, I'll want some good springs that give me some lowering as well!! I now have springs that were adjusted to lower, but I still think it didn't bring the car down enough...! Is there any way to get new progressive springs for the old civ??

By John S. (207.160.163.92) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 02:00 pm:

You know though, all this hashing around has been valuable, we keep learning more and more details about it all. It's only been recently that we've found the differences between 2ND Gen flanges,
bearings and such, so it has not been a waste of time.

By Andrew Fatseas (203.102.206.3) on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 05:57 pm:

Nikolaj,

To remove the top you either need the tops that screw off (pre 1976 I think), or you'll need to have them cut off and rewelded. Have a look at Dr Zoom's page, he describes in a fair bit of detail how he got his Koni's to work.