By Tim Harding (Timh) on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 07:08 pm:

Today I picked up some springs from a wagon. Tomorrow I plan on getting a spring compressor and doing the ol' wagon spring swap. In the future I will be installing new struts too, but for now I'll use the ones I have. Any suggestions for when I do this? I realize this isn't the safest thing to do, but my manuals don't mention the procedure at all. I'm assuming I just compress the springs a bit and use an impact gun to get the nut off the end?? If you guys have any tips let me know. Thanks.

By (Civicguru) on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 07:22 pm:

The easiest way to do it is to lie the strut on the floor (with plenty of room around you), stick your rattle gun (impact gun) on the nut, put your foot on the spring (wearing strong shoes) and zap off the nut. If you're lucky it just pops off and the strut shoots across the floor a little ... if you're unlucky bits go everywhere ... including bits of you :(.
A lot of suspension places do it this way and it does work (tried it a couple of times with no dramas).
Probably safer to use your spring compressors though. Just wind them up till the spring is off the seat, take off the nut, then unwind the spring.

By Charles R. ( - 206.171.134.229) on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 08:26 pm:

I've always used the shoot it across the floor method. There just isn't enough preload in the spring to make it truly unsafe. In fact I can put the springs back together without any tools as well. It's not easy but it can be done.

Charles R.

By (Civicguru) on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 - 08:55 pm:

That's what adjustable spring seats are for. Wind the seat down, put the springs on, bolt it all together, wind the seat back up :).

By Rick ( - 206.170.3.117) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 08:10 am:

These cars are really old and most springs have lost most of their "spring". When I did this, I was expecting a big earthquake or something similar. I had leather gloves on, safety goggles and a football helmet with a full face mask on. The spring didn't even jump an inch! I would still proceed with some caution.

By Rick ( - 206.170.3.166) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 08:53 am:

Have you already done the wagon front brake rotor thing? While you are at it. Big increase in stopping power. Ask John S. he's pretty smart, has all the percentages figured out.

By Tim Harding (Timh) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 10:00 am:

No I haven't done that yet. Does that involve swapping the wagon calipers too? All of the wagon brake parts were already taken, but I'd be interested to know which parts I should pick up when the next one shows up at the yard.

By Rick (Rick) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 10:05 am:

Yes, get the calipers and the brake lines. Early Accord calipers are also very good and they fit. One very important thing is that if you still have 12" wheels, the wagon brake rotors will not fit.

By Tim Harding (Timh) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 12:10 pm:

No problem, I've got 13" Enkie's (I love the junk yard!). Maybe I'll have to grab some accord brakes. There are lots of those at the yard.

I just "shot" my struts apart. No big deal - just a little "pop" and it came apart. Now I just have to start swapping the springs around. Thanks guys!

By Tim Harding (Timh) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 02:12 pm:

I got the left front side swapped out no problem, but when I went to the right side it was a different story. Who's sick idea was it to design a system where you have to take apart the brake line to get the strut off? After being together for 24 years the fittings don't want to come apart. I may just have to cut them and go buy new ones. Fun. I'll let them soak in oil for a while and see if that does the trick. There's no such thing as an easy job!

By Charles ( - 137.219.16.31) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 02:54 pm:

While they are off modify your strut. Cut the edge out of the bracket the brake line passes through. This is a godsend if you regularly muck about with the suspension as you can just slide the brake line out without undoing it.

The rears are easy and can often be done with one person and a quick hand, the fronts, with the torrington bearing etc can be a pain. If you have shortened shafts and struts and beefed springs even with two people it is a right pain in the ass. A bit of a trick to putting springs back on is this; Fully extend the shaft, fit the spring over the top with the spring cap and bearing assembly, bolt the top into the car. Fit the bottom of the strut into your steering knuckle and push the whole assembly under the strut tower. Place a jack under the steering knuckle and slowly wind it up guiding the shaft through the hole in the strut top. Every thing stays in place, there is no mad rush to whack the nut on and get it turned a couple of threads, you can do it with one person and you don't need a spring compressor.

By John S. ( - 204.120.50.1) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 05:14 pm:

Hey guys,
I can't take credit for the info on the 2nd Gen.
front brake swap...our friend Adrian Frankel gave me the idea...all I did was spend some time in the boneyard mixing and matching.
What you need is:
Calipers from 84-86 or 87 Accord or same from a CRX ,though they are less plentiful, also the larger rotors from the Accord...and the backing plates. I don't think the CRX rotors will work , they must be the Accord ones.
They are bigger than the stock front wagon calipers / rotors, plus they are a newer design and the sliders require less maintaince. Other than that it is a drop in.

By John S. ( - 204.120.50.1) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 05:19 pm:

If you are working with a 1st Gen car, you must use the uprights from a Wagon to mount the 1st Gen
Accord rotor/caliper parts.
I hope we are not getting 1st and 2nd Gen cars mixed up here.

By (Civicguru) on Thursday, January 13, 2000 - 05:45 pm:

Thanks John, that's right. Using 2nd gen uprights it's a straight bolt on using 84-86ish Accord or Prelude rotors (same) with same model calipers, CRX calipers or a few other models. You cannot use CRX rotors as they are shallower. If you are using 1st gen uprights then you need to use 2nd gen drive flanges and CVs, CRX rotors, CRX/Accord/Prelude calipers with special brackets. Or it seems some of the 1st gen wagons you guys in the US and Canada got have uprights that have the correct spacing for the Accord calipers to bolt straight on. You would still need to use the 2nd gen drive flange if you want to go to 100PCD.

By Todd ( - 205.188.200.36) on Saturday, January 15, 2000 - 04:46 pm:

Or you could just use the entire spindle from a first generation wagon (caliper and all). You would still have 4x120 pcd but it is a direct bolt on and gives you about 40% more front pad. Stops mine on a dime!

By John S. ( - 204.120.50.1) on Saturday, January 15, 2000 - 04:57 pm:

Those wagon calipers do work just fine, but there are a lot more 76-81 Accords and 80-83 Civic wagons (same caliper) in the boneyards...plus they are another 25-30% bigger than the 77-79 Civic wagon units, and are semi-metallic from the factory .
Only reason I've always used Accord ones is they are just a lot easier to find in good useable (used) condition.

By quikrick on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 08:18 am:

The first generation Prelude and the '80-'83 wagon have the same calipers. The first gen. Accord has a different caliper. They appear to use the same (or very similar pads) though. The Accord Caliper has a different design and a bigger body. All of the above have the same size mount spacing. After studying the two I chose to use the Accord calipers. I haven't installed them yet. I am going to get steel braided lines from Steve at SMC Products (Southern CA) 818-355-3763
Rick

By quikrick on Monday, March 13, 2000 - 01:56 pm:

Back to the subject of springs... The two most common spring swaps are:
1. use front (1st gen) station wagon springs in the front.
2. use 1200 front springs in the back.

I did some scientific research (I removed the springs from the strut assembly and placed my hand on the top of the spring and bounced with all my weight on each spring, blindfolded)the front station wagon springs are quite a bit stiffer.
But I have a question for the rears. Why would people say to use the 1200 front springs? Would CVCC fronts be too stiff for the rear? The outside diameter on the front CVCC springs matches the O.D. on the existing rears. Lets take it a step further... would station wagon springs be even better for the rear if stiff is what you want?
This is probably like "exhaust theory" ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers!

Rick

By Todd ( - 205.188.200.31) on Monday, March 13, 2000 - 08:04 pm:

Okay Rick heres people #1. It really depends on your driving preference. I use the 73 rear spring in my rear because I like for the rear to stick. I can't seem to keep the car under control when the ass end slides out. I don't even use a rear sway bar. Now different people actually control the car better sideways. Just find the spring you like and use it.

By quikrick on Tuesday, March 14, 2000 - 07:25 am:

So, Todd, you are saying that your theory-belief-experience-preference is that if the rear is too stiff or rigid it will (or possibly) have too much tail wag. It should be able to give a little, EH?
Point taken.
NEXT!

By David Weber on Tuesday, March 14, 2000 - 07:58 pm:

I am surprised that anyone would want the rear to stick. It just feels cheap to me when the front end washes out in a turn. My next upgrade when I get my $#*@! oil burning problem fixed (see "Blown Headgasket?")is to get some 1200 front springs for the back and cut them about 3 loops.
By the way. It is much easier and definately worth the money to use spring compressors. I bought them 100 years ago, and I use them quite often on all my cars.

By quikrick on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 07:50 am:

OK, I installed the wagon front springs and some new KYB struts on Saturday. I also installed the '81 Accord front brake calipers (I already had wagon spindles). Took it for a spin around the block, Big difference in ride, I got rid of the BOUNCE! and the car came up about 1/2". I have that big heavy 1.8L iron block, I highly reccomend this spring swap. The brakes still need to be bled properly, I had my 8 year old son helping me! Then I installed the 1200 front springs in the rear, but I snapped a metal brake line as I was finishing up... I'd like to get my hands on the Honda engineer who... well never mind. I have a few spares (metal brake lines) but they are at work. I'll finish up tonight.

By John S. ( - 209.223.82.136) on Monday, April 24, 2000 - 07:16 pm:

Hey rick,
Did you cut the springs, or put them in as is?
I'm also curious if the fronts in the rear are not a bit too stiff...how about letting me know after you drive in awhile.
Don't give up on me and the '74 struts yet...
I hit a curb with my Dads car...still sorting that out.
Worse thing is it blew the airbag out...I was only going about 25-30 mph and it did no body damage...except for me(bruised both forearms slightly)...so much for modern safety.
You are going to love the security those brakes
provide you with...I first did that swap on my
last Civic way back in '85...saved my butt more than once.

By quikrick on Tuesday, April 25, 2000 - 08:47 am:

Yes, I did cut the springs and I also took a grinder to the bottom of the spring to try to get nice flat surface for a better seat. I used the uncut side on top for a better seat. I cut three full coils off. When I took it for a test drive I had not yet installed the "front-rear" springs, and I was very impressed. I don't know if it was the new KYB struts or the wagon springs.
Then last night I finised the rear installation with existing (3 year old) Honda struts. Took it for a spin and it feels very tight. Nice and stiff, I won't say too stiff because that is up to the driver (but..yes they are pretty stiff). It was a little more "comfortable" with the stock rear springs. I'm keeping the stock rear spring... just in case! I also plan to get new rear struts. I did go on some freeway interchanges "cloverleaf" at speed and it does hug the road pretty good. I haven't yet had the chance to do some really hard driving, I'll let you know.
The brakes are great. Good bite!

By ROotUS ( - 198.142.191.15) on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 03:24 am:

what are kyb struts?
i need new brakes, as i have a problem with expecting to not have to give way at some intersections, and then realising too late - and screeching right through them. scary.

by cutting 3 full loops off your springs, wouldn't you have problems with the springs jumping out of the seats or something (like when you put the springs in, you wouldn't need a compressor, as the spring would be shorter than the shocker travel?)

By quikrick on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 01:46 pm:

KYB is a Japanese manufacterer of aftermarket high performance struts/shocks.
YES one of the springs has popped out of the seat a couple of times going in or out of driveways at funny angles when the strut is at full extension. It has never happened at speed as I drive like an 80 year old grandma! Charles recomended that I wire them in. I intend to get coil overs as soon as the money is aviailable.
Send Donations!!!

By ROotUS (203.34.130.92) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 06:20 am:

what is the go with first gen accord rotors... to bolt these on, what do i need? like i have 120pcd mags and tyres, and don't want to change pattern, tell me what i need to know.

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.227) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 06:46 am:

Yes they will bolt onto the Civic drive flanges, but it won't help you much as the calipers won't fit.

By ROotUS (203.20.149.5) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 05:10 pm:

calipers wont fit? wont fit the rotors they came on? i mean a whole swap... or is there some clearance problems?

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.227) on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 05:22 pm:

The calipers will not fit on the uprights. Accord uprights will not fit on the Civic (well they probably could with enough stuffing around but it's really not worth the effort). You'll see guys talking about using wagon uprights with Accord brakes ... they'll fit on those, but we never got them here on OZ.

By ROotUS (203.34.130.92) on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 07:15 am:

damn damn damn.
oh well.
i understand now - just still coming to grips with the terms.