By kelly (205.188.192.162) on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 07:16 pm:

i was just wondering if any eastcoasters from the US were on the board. i live in richmond, virginia. if so maybe we can have some kind of car event put together.

kelly

By ddechon (12.78.129.67) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:01 pm:

I live near DC, but my car probably won't run for a couple of years. It's my project car. Roger lives in NJ.

ddechon@yahoo.com
www.geocities.com/ddechon/MyCar

Darrell

By Todd (63.50.56.9) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:21 pm:

Matt, Bill and I live in Greensboro, NC.

By Anonymous (12.110.136.90) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:48 pm:

Man am I glad I don't live on the east coast, especially in the US! my little civic would get blowed up dude. Either that or have a 110 story building fall on it.

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 03:53 pm:

NOT FUNNY

By Anonymous (63.15.218.211) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 04:36 pm:

uncool jerk!

By daniel andersen (206.65.190.134) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:05 pm:

i also live in nc
im 16 and just bought my first 79 civic 1200
i started with it just the other day

By Travis (24.4.254.156) on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:58 pm:

Wow, you gotta love the people with so much respect that they can joke about thousands of peolpe dieing.

By kelly (152.163.197.206) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:41 am:

as far as im concearned, you are not welcome here any more "anonymous" so take your immature self to a teen chat room to hang out with the rest of your peers...
kelly

By ddechon (12.78.178.99) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 06:30 am:

If you've seen my website, you'd know I'm proud to be an American and I'm proud to live in heart of our nation.

ddechon

By Zippy (Zippy) (205.188.201.213) on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:38 pm:

I live in PA near Trenton NJ. I saw a 1st gen near New Brunswick NJ back in '97. I hear that there is one in central PA.

Roger

By Don (209.181.52.12) on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 09:38 pm:

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. Very cool words!
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.
None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries into help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the Decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times -and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose, both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

By Todd (63.50.56.31) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:26 am:

Amen.

By kelly (152.163.205.82) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:28 am:

thanks for the support, its hard to even think of world war 3, but im feeling that it is right around the corner. who will step up to the plate to help? nato hopefully. but im very affraid of the end result, especially for afganistan and packistan if the do not turn over bin laden.
desert storm was horrific enough, thousands dead. and that was just to free another country. now were fighting for our freedom, and in that matter for the world. i fear mass casualties, and global unrest. may god give us the strength to make the right descisions...
once again thanks for all the support.
kelly

By Travis (24.4.254.128) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 03:02 pm:

Yes, I saw that same article, and it really is true. I hope things fold out ok.

By ddechon (12.78.116.120) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 05:27 pm:

I heard from my neighbor that people started pouring into the recruiters to sign up for the military. People want to see action taken against the terrorists or do it themselves. I'd be proud to do it.

Darrell

By civic1200freak (65.33.32.47) on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 11:27 pm:

Here's one for ya. I picked this up today from one of our new car salesmen. We were incredibly slow today as gabrielle is unloading tons of rain. (Orlando Fla) It's kinda long, but it really hit home for me.It was written by a journalist in the miami herald reporter, so here goes..
they pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and cultural issues, to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the american soul. But at this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelievingeyes,the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering. You monster. You beast.You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our Worlds Trade Center, OUR pENTAGON, US? What was it you hoped we would learn?
Whatever it was, please know that you failed. did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. we'refrivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae(not sure what that word means), a singers revealingdress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though-peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us,people of faith, believers of a just and loving god. Some people-you, perhaps-think that any, or all of this, makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak.
Indeed we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals. Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mournig, and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awfull thing you did, still, working to make ourselvesunderstand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancey novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of it's ambition and and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.
But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length,in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, Do not. What i know reassures me. It causes me to tremble with dread of the future.
In days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happenand what must be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastned, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined. You see, there is steel beneth this velvet. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americams we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defence of all that we cherish. Still I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us. It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider message received. and take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started. But you're about to learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now , I posted this to share my feelings on the incident, and this would hit it home. And maybe , by posting this article to you men and women on this board,can make me feel that iv'e contributed to the civic board, and our civic nation,home and abroad. I love this disscusion board, It's contibutors, and my country...Rick Wheeler civic1200freak

By go4mo (24.69.255.205) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 12:35 am:

first of all .. about terror...
my heart goes out to all who suffer so horribly
i hope you will find strength in yourself, in your heart and progress in your search for peace in your heart ..

at the risk of being lambasted ...

i was on the phone with one of my best friends during the catastrophe. i am in vancouver, b.c. canada, and he recently relocated to new york and took a position at an insurance company .. insuring jumbo jets ...
his office looked out at the world trade centre ..

so we're on the phone, he's describing the debris hitting his building, burning paper floating past his window.. reading the letterhead of offices that no longer exsist ..
the people jumping, the first tower collapsing ...
it was terrible to hear it all happening in the background .. to hear the destruction.
and the terrific disbelief in his voice.

this happened to people in america ..
not only americans ...

two things occurred ..
1.)the american government was attacked
2.)innocent people were sacrificed in a disgusting attempt at terror.

as strange as this sounds, i think it is important to know that this didn't happen to a government with clean hands, and once again, the american people will pay for the manipulations of the american governments' international policies.

and, the government is doing a fantastic job at deflecting it's coercive involvement away from itself by placing 100% of the blame on someone else.
everyone who perished, their family and friends, loved ones and co-workers are innocent victims... it is an unspeakable needless tragedy.
their culpability is nil.

perhaps this might be a time to bind together as humans, not nationalist clumps. that's what has led the world to this brink in the first place.

don't you think the american government has ever missed a "justifiable" target and wiped out thousands of civilians? yes.
where was the generosity of the leaders then?

i truly do see the american government using the sentiment of good people as an opportunity to wage more sensless war, provoke more "justifiable" killing and achieve a hollow revenge ..
oh, except lining the corporate industrial pockets through all of the cash a good clash will generate ..
it has started already .. did you know that thousands of professional construction and demolition workers have volunteered to clear the debris and aid in the rescue work but are being declined because three companies share a $40 billion dollar contract to clear the wreckage?
you won't see that on the news in america ..
you do in any other country..
i find that atrocious.

if the people are mobilised to hatred, no matter the motive, we will still end up with blood on our hands.
that will never heal broken hearts. never.
i feel deeply for the victims, but try and be mindful of the manipulation of our grief.

it doesn't belong to the government. it belongs to the people. our collective mourning is not something that should be taxed or annexed for more killing!!
a show of might will do nothing for us as people. if we know who we really are, we need not seek revenge. it will only fan the flame.
i have no desire to become "them"
the only difference then between "us and them" will be "and".
the real people who did this are already dead..
do you think it's worth killing them again?

mo

By kelly (152.163.197.181) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 08:50 am:

the point brought up was well spoken mo,

we do this to our selves.
we fund the machine that pollutes our earth.
we support the government that pokes and prods every other countries policies to no end.
we sit and watch sienfeld as we planes drop bombs over kosevo(misspelling?)
but we have homelessness.
the clothes we wear right now were probably made in a sweatshop in south america where children make 12 cents a day just so GAP can make a profit.
but we have to look good,image is everything.
but we have our own children blowing up schools.
our military ships dump tons of garbage into the ocean daily.
we wage war on drugs only to keep agencies like the DEA, ATF and the like on payrole.
what happened to DC mayor marion barry who was smoking crack with prostitutes in a hotel? meanwhile the average citizen who wants to partake in smoking marijuana (a plant from the earth)is sent to prison.
what the hell happened to us seeing clearly?
why do we let our own american tragedies go unpuninshed?
where did we go wrong?
its not about being american.
its about being human.
and now everyone wants to do what they can to help.
where were you sept. 10, 2001? probably going about your same ways as i was.
were you going to join the army or reserves then? i think not.
this angy sporatic nationalism isnt what we need right now.
why do tragedies bring us together?
we pass our fellow man daily and not think twice if that american is ok.
if you think about it, bin laden is made out of the same materials that charles manson and you and i are made out of.
will another bomb or war really solve anything?
we need to examine and change our lives first before destroying another.
what gives americans the right to "play God?"
not that God would kill inocent people anyways.
he is watching us everywhere.
he is letting us dictate our future.
he is giving us, everyone the choice to drop bombs or hold hands with "the enemy."
it is OUR choice as humans that will scar or heal the world as it is today.
like i said before,
we did this to ourselves.

you can criticize me all you want, call me unamerican, but my voice is just as loud as yours is.
when will you speak out?
God bless
kelly

By Anonymous (24.69.255.205) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 09:03 am:

Go Kelly!!

By Don (209.181.52.88) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 09:36 am:

Hey Moe!

I do not think anyone in the USA thinks that this country has a spotless record. This country was built by people and their desires for something better and people make mistakes, myself included. Sometimes very big ones, damage cannot be repaired. Just look at how all the America’s north and south (Canada too) came to be.

I spent eight years in the US Air Force,( the majority of the time was spent in the European / mid east regions) got out because I thought that my life was used as a pawn by big business and government.

I will not hesitate to go back in at a moments notice if needed. Why? Not because we like the problems in our government and I dont think there is a country standing that has “ clean hands” (I wish we could make them that way... There are somethings your country doesn‘t tell you either I was stationed with Canadians in 86-90 in Europe) but because I can deal with my government and its actions and if they don't do something I agree with I will let them know, loudly and respond with my vote. What I can not deal with is some crazed person killing my friends and family. I think every solder who has served and or gave their lives did it for the good in our country not the corrupted side and would fight that just as hard if they could.

The US military has been closing bases in a very rapid fashion in other countries ( most of the air bases I have served in are gone). So what's their beef?
That we cleared out Kuwait after it had been raped and pillaged, ya I know the oil control but do you think that Sadam wanted it for the view ? or that we supported Israel, a country that was supported and put into place after the holocaust as a place for the Jewish people to live.

The USA has done allot of good with its greatly publicized mistakes. And did not deserve sept 11 in anyway shape or form.

I would not support a mass attack on innocents, but all I have heard is talk of attacks against the perpetrators and their support . I think this is why nothing is being done right now, we want to make sure that we have the right people to punish. Will a war solve anything? Depends, a small localized strike agains those reponsible yes. Mass distruction and the harm to many unresponsible people, no! That would make things much worse.

One thing to consider, if they crashed a plane in to a building in Canada and you had evidence this was not the end would you just sit back and do nothing? and say well we deserved it?
PS I will still get you a Civic, I'm not mad just trying to let you see the picture.

By Anonymous (208.60.186.130) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 10:40 am:

I don't believe that we should go to war with the Afghani's. We supproted, equipped and trained them in the 80's to fight the Russians, and the Russians never conqured them. Does anyone here remember Vietnam?, I should believe that no-one in the world today wants another war like that. The fact of the matter is that there are other ways to fight terrorism, most of which are not practiced because people value their menial conveniences more than their safety. I would fight for my country right alonside everyone else, but I still reserve my right to question the validation behind the plans that are being made behind closed doors even as we speak.

By Don (209.181.52.21) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 12:00 pm:

You are misinformed, A few friends of mine that are still in the military have told me that the chances of that are small as they are starting to show small amounts of effort in turning over the suspects. The groups themselves and those that support them..... thats another story.

By Don (209.181.52.21) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 12:11 pm:

Whats the deal with all the "anonymous" post. If you have an opinion put your name on it. Besides the little number behind the name makes it easy to figure out who you are anyway it doesn't change that much. Some may have a different view but its not like we will be hunting you down or anything

By ddechon (12.78.116.228) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 03:07 pm:

If we kill the innocent while getting revenge, we will be terrorists too. However war will have lateral damage (innocent casualties). It's a part of war. What separates us from the terrorists is our laser guided bombs. We're not going to drop an A-bomb (not first anyway). We will try very hard to hit the intended target that truly needs to be hit because we've learned from the past and we don't intend to harm people. We only want to disable the forces which are acting against us. If innocent people die it will be unforturnate, but if we hit a crowd of people and Bin Laden dies, the bomb could save thousands of lives, and economic problems. Yes we made mistakes in the past, but we intended to save the lives of thousands or millions. Let's talk about the lives that were saved by using smart bombs.

What did we do when the trade center was bombed years ago? What did we do when the Cole was bombed? Not a lot! It's time we took a stand. It's gone too far!

I washed my car this weekend, but like I said before, I will be proud to deploy.

Darrell

By Ed (24.43.71.141) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 03:20 pm:

Be grateful that we can all express our views FREELY on this discussion board without fear of retribution.

perhaps it is THAT FREEDOM that is most important.

if FREEDOM is threatened, then RESIST.

otherwise, be thankful you can feed and clothe yourself and your children.

here's a few quotes (Will Rogers) worth thinking about:

"That's one good thing about wars. It takes smarter men to figure out who loses 'em than it does to start 'em...The more ignorant you are the quicker you fight."

"I don't care how little your country is, you got a right to run it like you want to. When the big nations quit meddling, then the world will have peace."

"Now if there is one thing that we do worse than any other nation, it is try and manage somebody else's affairs."

Will Rogers died in 1935 - prior to Pearl Harbour, prior to World War II, and prior to Korea and VietNam !!!

one other quote:

between the good and evil in a man, I choose to believe the good.

the show of worldwide support shows that good will triumph over this adversity.

proud to be Canadian!

(p.s. even if this thread has little to do with a civic 1200)

By Brian Wilborn (24.4.254.106) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 05:08 pm:

No quotes here, but I would like to point this out...

This would be a horrible tragedy no matter what country it happened in. It was a completely unprovoked attack against the industrialized nations of the world.

You don't think so? Think about this...it was the "World" Trade Centre. Businesses from all parts of the world had offices in that complex. Not only did many Americans die in this crash but other countrymen as well. Canadians. Australians. Brittons. Frenchmen. Indans. I'm sure some Pakistanis and Afghans were victims as well.

If America's politicians were so much a part of what made this happen, then why are all of the industrialized nations of the world standing along side America to try to rectify the evil that caused this to happen? Bombing entire nations out of existence will not solve the problem. Executing all terrorists will not solve the problem. All it will do is create more terrorists angry at the people who obliterated the first group.

What is the answer then? I can't tell you. For as long as we have been on this planet we have been fighting with each other. Romans vs. Europe. Catholics vs. Protestants. Democracy vs. Communism. Some of these wars are fought on the streets. Some on battlegrounds. And other across negotiation tables. I just hope that the world united can find a solution that will put an end to these cowardly and atrocious acts against the innocent people of not only America, but the world.


Peace to all on earth.

-- Brian

By ddechon (12.78.178.38) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 05:40 pm:

I think every nation is responsible for the terrorists inside that nation. By ignoring hate groups, they're allowing them to grow and destroy. Hate groups act against their national interest. A nation can act quickly and appropriately against it's own people. There need to be laws, and of course, the laws need to be enforced within every country.

Darrell

By ddechon (12.78.178.38) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 05:47 pm:

I'm not saying we should bomb the whole country. I'm not like that. I'm just saying they should be criticized for not taking action against their groups. It's also a way for a country to prevent it(if they want to).

Darrell

By Zoin (216.209.113.135) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 08:46 pm:

Think of this...
If the horrific plan the terrorists had worked to the full extent that I think they had hoped it would ie the twin towers collapsing on impact, the loss of life would have been upwards to 50,000 people. Every day people like you and I dying in a flash. Compare that to the drawn out Vietnamese war that dragged on for seemingly ages where loss of life of American soldiers was 56,000 soldiers. In this attack on the towers they would have killed a "whole war worth" of people with very little loss on their side or cost. These type of people are very different that you and I! They do not fear to die like we do. The innocent mean nothing. Death to them is a one way ticket to heavenly nest full of wanting virgins. If they had not wanted to be so "symbolic" and hit the targets they did then they could have easily hit nuke power stations and messed up both USA and my Canadian home. Messed it up for ever! I belive there are still sympathizers in both our countries that are living among us. Who knows the ride we are in for. The US has its many war machines that it is confident standing behind and to a greater extent the US is our Canadian big brother but who knows what a war with these types could do to us. IT took just a boy named David and one stone to take down Goliath the giant. I somehow after Tuesday feel very vulnerable. My prayers are with us all!

By Jms (Jms) (63.48.61.142) on Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 08:58 pm:

Im from NY, my whole fam lives there, so needless to say it hit close to home. Fortunately no one close was a victim but our prayers go to to those who were. Also in the military and I feel the war on terrorism will never be over. People like Osama bin Laden have to many followers. Its especially scary when their religious mentality is that of doing something like that will automatically reserve you a spot in heaven. But we do need to act and show the world this will not be tolerated lightly like some other recent things such as our troops being held in China, USS Cole etc etc.

By Brian Wilborn (24.4.254.106) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 12:23 am:

Zoin: very true. This can get very ugly, very quickly. I hope it doesn't get to that point.

By go4mo (24.69.255.205) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 12:59 am:

hey all ..

it's good to see so many conscious people ..
the real tragedy is that it takes something this horrific o get us talking about it ..
Don, i too was in the military.
i was a 2nd Lieutenant and i trained snipers.
i am so not a violent person, but i am an awesome shot. (one of those freak talents .. you don't know how you got it, ya just did)
my theory around violence is this .. sorta fits the snipers code ..
-only when absolutely neccessary
-if so, make it fast and direct .. the target ONLY
-if you can't do it with a single shot from a .22, get outa town.

sounds harsh, but ithink it's true ..
if we're talkin' solutions how about this one ..
i call this "passive terrorism" ..
get a 1-800 numbe.
widely publicize that any informant from inside the camp of the organization that turns over the ringleader (and first and second level under bosses) will be rewarded handsomely upon their capture .. then, sit back and watch those jerks wish they had eight eyes each. create suspicion amongst the ranks ..
it will do the job for you.
just an odd thought.

all points of view are welcome.
freedom is grand.
mo

By Todd (63.50.56.4) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 06:30 pm:

Mo, I'd like to know where your source of info is that tells you there is a contract for the cleanup.
Kelly, "We" didn't do this to ourselves. Sure there are people doing all those things that you describe. Those people make bad choices and should be punished for them. Hell I've been saying that for the past 8 years. But there are a hell of a lot more people making good choices. The very fact that they are allowed to make those choices is because our ancestors stood up for this country. They didn't let anyone in the world push them around. Sure we've got our problems here but tell me where it's better. War is war. Innocent people can and do die. But if we as Americans don't stand up for ourselves, we'll get trampled on again and again.
Reading your post again, it sounds as if you are unAmerican. There's a saying here in the south that goes like this: if ya ain't for us, you're again' us.

By go4mo (24.69.255.205) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 08:04 pm:

hey todd ..

the contract info came from the CBC .. a very reputable source .. (sorta like your NPR)
i don't see kelly as being unAmerican, just not into patriotic hype.
acknowledging the clandestine operations of a country is not unreasonable. it plays a part in history as much as all the good things and more often than not, the nasty bits don't get mentioned in a balanced way.

it's easy to have division in these passionate times .. extreme points of view from within. that is the point of terrorism - to divide and conquer.
don't let them win. here is how you can fight back ---
the true aspect of freedom is allowing and encouraging varying opinions as valuable to the collective whole and understanding the neccessity of their place in societal consciousness.
therefore, accusations are destructive to the very strength you claim.
there can be no such thing as 'unAmerican' if the person is desiring the same peaceful and strong country that you are; the very foundation of democracy and unity that you aspire to requires the absolute inclusion of opposition.

my heart goes out to people targeted like this .. and it also goes out to the families of those who pulled of this disgusting stunt. i don't know if there is a mother out there that would feel good about losing her child this way ..
or a lover, family, wife and children who would not want there loved one to walk through the door right now.
these are real people too.
the freedom that the u.s. fights so hard to protect isn't just for americans, and for some reason (apparently one good enough to die for)these people feel they need a piece of it. and they have a right to want it as much as any american. the question we might want to ask is how can we help them find PEACEFUL freedom? is there a way?
or should we just blow the snot out them. do we really think that will end anything?
it takes so much courage to admit it, but the reality is that freedom is exactly what creates expression .. and this was definitely an expression.
big symbols make big targets.
i'm truly sorry for the losses of all concerned.
it's dreadful.

By John S. (208.188.193.171) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 08:56 pm:

Lets face it guys, the situation is screwed from many angles. There are lies and deceit spread today as in the beginning of mankind...what IS the story of Adam and Eve...Cain and Abel anyway?
To me, the message driven home to me was, due to technology, how much damage and loss may be created by a handful of Demons with that purpose in mind. By the way, the best definition of a Demon I have ever seen is a body without a soul.
Whether we choose to call it Karma, Jehovah, Allah, or choose to think of it as having a name no human might fully understand, the Power which ultimately governs us all, knows who has done what, and why, and we shall each stand before judgement in our own time. I do believe those who are behind this and all other crimes against mankind will reap what they have sown.

By Don (209.181.52.42) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 09:14 pm:

I think with the tension in the last few days, It would be easy to misunderstand Kelly's post.
This is my interpretation of it; it’s more pro-human and anti-violence, than anti-American. He is hoping for a perfect world and who doesn’t wish for that.

I do value the intent of his post but in the real world we live in the lion still eats the lamb, its not pretty just fact. In the light of the mostly passive actions that were given to the past attacks and they have just escalated I am for the lion approach.

Some previous posts said the USA meddles in other countries affairs. That's sort of a cop out, what exactly was meant? Did you mean coming in to stop the ethnic cleansing in the provinces of the former USSR or Africa? Or maybe you mean the gulf war? If you saw it thru the TV, what happened to Kuwait before we got there was way worse that any nightmare you may dream up. There are some things too sick to show on TV. You can’t mean the peace talks between Israel and Palestine cause both sides asked us to come.
So ....?

Frankly I wish someone meddled a little more, may be we could have not been caught so unprepared.

The reason for the attacks was supposedly because we supported non- Islamic ideals.
(Mo - Not because they wanted “ freedom”)

To respond to Kelly’s phase “were where you on Sept 10th”.
The M16 is the only gun I have ever had used in my life, I have received the marksman rating. Since I left the military, I choose to live my live as peaceful and tolerant to any human as I can regardless of race or county and firearm free. But buddy if I have to choose between picking up that weapon again and what happened to all the mothers, fathers, daughters and sons on Tuesday, I will! Whether it’s Jan 1st or Dec 31st.

Thanks to all for sharing your views and allowing me to try and change your mind about some of them

By Don (209.181.52.72) on Sunday, September 16, 2001 - 09:42 pm:

I really wish all we had to discuss was Civic stuff. Kinda trivial now. May it be that way again soon!

By Todd (63.50.56.31) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:08 am:

I don't know if you'd call NPR a reliable source, but that's another story. Mo, lets just say we disagree. To allow cultural diversity and differences of opinion is fine. But we only have the right to express this opinion, not have it accepted. This idea that there is no right and wrong, just differences in opinion doesn't fly. there is right and wrong and good and evil. To accept all points of view would (and has in this country) break down the moral foundation upon which America was founded. This evil cannot be allowed to flourish. Call me extreme, but the responsible parties and those who harbor them should be exterminated.
And by the way, ask anyone who knows me well, I was of this opinion before the attack, and now after the attack.

By Farfignugen (12.110.136.90) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:11 am:

I know this discussion is dragging on, but I felt it necessary to put my viewpoint in, if you don't mind. I feel deep sympathy and I empathise with all those in pain. I ask that you please read on.

I commend John S. for recognizing the source of these problems. I'm well versed in theology, and I find it shocking that in the world today, people do not realize how they are fulfilling history and prophecy. Down throughout the ages, war has been the custom, never peace. But even the Bible gives us the answer. I find it sad that Billy Grahame on TV this week said he didn't know the answer. Its right in front of him! Did any of you know that the Bible foretold this would happen in our day? When else in history have so many wars occured, along with sickness, famine, disease, earthquakes, hateful attitudes of many, perverted lifestyles of crime or immorality... the list goes on. The point is, mankind has been on this course since the beginning. He's not getting any better, in fact in our day is worse than EVER before. And yet people blame God for all this! How can we? He gave us free will, and his opposer the Devil has taken over many of the hearts today and turned them to yet more evil. Perhaps you're familiar with what's written in front of the UN building in New York... Isaiah 2:4 "and He (God) will set matters straight among many peoples...and they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, nation will not lift up against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."

Does anyone think that this could happen at the rate humanity is going? The majority of people wish to go to war right now! If only humanity could follow the commands of the Bible - love your neighbor, love your enemy! None of these terrible disasters would happen. I mourn too for those who died, but my heart is saddened the most with the demise of humanity as a whole. I believe in the God of the Bible - Jehovah, and I am confident that in due time, he will fulfill his prophecy found in Revelation chapter 11... "He will bring to ruin those ruining the earth." Wouldn't you like to see the end of war? I think we all would, and I hope that all of us can learn to love our fellow man, no matter race, color, culture or nationality.

By John S. (216.89.129.197) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

Bingo...

By Puff (209.53.203.25) on Monday, September 17, 2001 - 09:41 pm:

Just outta curiosity has anyone seen the movie "Threads"? Quite a dark vision of life after a nuclear war. I only ask because the start of the movie sounds curiously close to whats happening now. I know Pakinstan has nuclear capabilities but how bout Afghanistan?

By Todd (63.50.56.85) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 04:27 am:

Farf, you take Isaiah out of context. It does say the Lord will set matters straight among nations, but it also says it will be in the days that the lord is ruler over Jerusalem. The whole Isaiah book was a vision, prophecy if you will. As far as I know Jerusalem isn't the ruling city and the Lord isn't there (yet). I try to be compassionate and after the past 8 years I can even see why they hate us. But the fact is we didn't start this. I can point out many other instances in the Bible where the Lord tells us to stamp out evil and not to forget how our enemies treat us. And love for fellow man or not, they are our enemy. If George W. Bush lets this go, just like Clinton let the other acts of terrorism go(African embassy, USS Cole, World Trade Center Bombing) the terrorism will continue to escalate. I said it before and I'll say it again, Our nation hasn't become the greatest nation on Earth by sitting back and letting madmen reign evil. It's obvious that I'm not going to change anyone's opinion about this so this will be my last post on this subject. God bless America.

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 07:48 am:

May I also remind you guys... Reagan hit kadafi pretty hard, we haven't heard much from kadafi since!

By Farfignugen (12.110.136.90) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 09:49 am:

Todd, I'd like to point out to you that I did not take Isaiah out of context, but at the same time I know people on this board aren't going to want a religious discussion on our hands. So I will make it simple and to the point. Isaiah was giving a prophecy, yes, but there are many reasons we won't go into as to why it applies to our time and not to Israel or Jerusalem. God does NOT teach humans to stamp out evil, nor does the Bible say to remember how our enemies treat us. It is in fact the exact opposite. Anyone who is interested or doubting, go look up Matthew 5:43,44 or Luke 23:34. But most important, especially pertaining to the fact that Americans want to seek vengence, look at Romans 12:17-21...

"Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah." But, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head." Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.

I hope I've made my point clear now, and perhaps we can all consider it as we go back to our lives.

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 09:57 am:

*PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH*

By ddechon (12.91.127.217) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 02:35 pm:

Thank You Farfignugen

I like to read stuff that makes you feel good.

Here's an awesome link. As far as religon goes, this site is neutral. Please check out these great pictures.

http://pigpen.exodus.net/thankyou/

Darrell

By go4mo (24.69.255.202) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 06:20 pm:

thank you everyone for all your posts ..
i do mean everyone.
understanding one another is the key to compassion and peace.

mo

By Don (209.181.52.97) on Tuesday, September 18, 2001 - 09:35 pm:

That link is AWESOME~!
Its got pictures of the whole world lighting candles etc.. for the 11th.

By ddechon (12.91.114.251) on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 12:44 pm:

The link I sent before has changed.
Check it out.
I'm glad to see the site up and running.
http://pigpen.exodus.net/

Darrell