By Anonymous (24.71.223.140) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:07 pm:

adrian from calgary looking for practical inexpensive horsepower gains ie under a $100
i have an eb3 1200cc motor with a five spd.

By Anonymous (24.71.223.140) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:09 pm:

looking for a company that sells headers for eb3
in calgary any body know

By Anonymous (24.70.93.118) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 05:40 pm:

Swap in a 1983 en1 1335 and gain 25hp!Should be easy to find.Expect to pay $50-$250 at your local wrecker.Then,while your driving the snot outta that,build yourself a stroker and gain 60hp!Headers are expensive and hard to find!Your money would be better spent on an old fashioned tune-up(plugs,wires,cap,rotor,points,oil,air and fuel filters)!New wheel bearings and tires will also help!

By Anonymous (24.71.223.140) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 09:16 pm:

adrian here does an en1 bolt up to a eb3 5spd
i have to do a head gasket in the spring or
jan,feb so is there a better head that i can
maybe find at the wreckers
without to many mods ??????

By Anonymous (24.70.93.118) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 10:27 pm:

Yes the en1 will bolt to your 78 5spd(GB) (you will have to customize a bracket and torque rod though) using an 83 5spd(GN) makes this swap easier an eb2 head will work but you would have to also change pistons an en1 head will also work but is basically the same as an eb3 best bet would be to redo a eb3 head

By mo (24.69.255.202) on Friday, November 30, 2001 - 11:48 pm:

hey adrian ..
the 1335 is a great thing to swap in ..
lots more power ..
if you want to keep the 78 5speed gearbox then you should also put the 78 flywheel on the en1
(using the 78 clutch ass. too of course)

the upper torque /mount is a longer reach to the the motor .. if you know someone who can weld well and somewhat delicately, get her/him to snip the ends of the mount you have and weld in a longer stronger bar. it's simple, just try not to cook the rubber .. and remember to measure your centres really accurately.

when removing the 78 motor , don't don't don't lose the clip that keeps the speedo cable in place at the gearbox .. it's a pain in the butt ..

the en1 head is very similar to an eb3 .. don't bother messin with it too much .. spend your $$ gettin' yourself a good dual sidedraft carb or a nice 32/36 weber ..
you'll definitely notice the kick there!!

just my experience.
i love burnin past people up the cut on the upper levels highway .. while accelerating!!!
heee

good luck and welcome to "the ho' zone"
mo

By Don (209.181.52.68) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 05:42 am:

Kirk Racing Products still makes a header.
http://www.kirkracing.com/

By Anonymous (205.151.8.4) on Saturday, December 01, 2001 - 01:19 pm:

thanks for the tips, please send more i am always intrested in good ideas , i was thinking i was going to install a 84 to 86 1500s civic/crx
complete drive train
adrian

By glen (203.25.25.212) on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:44 am:

mo,
How much power does an EN motor make.

By mo (24.69.255.202) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:37 pm:

glen,
i really don't know .. just more.
i do know that it feels like a whole lot more ..
the car likes to highway cruise at 90mph
and hills?
don't even think about them anymore ..
my set up is -
1335 en motor
rs carbs
sportier cam (from geoff@coltcams.com )
12' aluminium wheels with 165's
5 speed tranny.

that's it.
feels like a whole new car.
all i need now is the sweet 4-2-1 exhaust and we'll really see what happens.

i'd like to know how much power that is ..
mo

if anyone knows the accurate HP for the 1335, let us know!

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:18 pm:

The Canadian EB3 produces 63hp in stock form in the 1st gen.The Canadian EN1 produces 75hp in stock form in the (heavier) 2nd gen.With an EN1 installed in a 1st gen it's about 86hp.As I stated above a gain of about 25hp.Done correctly an EN1 can be built to pump out 100+hp with the stock manifolds,exhaust and carb.

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.141) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:27 pm:

The Canadian EN1 produces 75hp in stock form in the (heavier) 2nd gen.With an EN1 installed in a 1st gen it's about 86hp

Sorry, but this statement makes no sense!

Are you trying to say that a standard EN1 engine will produce 75hp in a 2nd gen civic but if you put the exact same engine in a 1st gen it will pump out 86hp??

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:47 pm:

Hp is measured at the wheels!

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 06:04 pm:

Since the figures vary when a given engine is installed in different models,some are representative rather than exact.

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.141) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 06:26 pm:

Sorry, but that's a load of bollox. What shell an engine is installed in bears no relation to how much power it puts out.
Those figures you have given are close to what the engines put out but they are flywheel figures, not at-wheel figures.
Power at the wheels will differ from flywheel power only by the losses in the drivetrain. If you put an EN1 and it's gearbox in an EB it will produce the same power at the wheels as if it were in an EN civic. Using an EB 4-speed it will produce a bit more at the wheels as it has one less gear to spin, but the extra gear is only worth about 5hp.

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:09 pm:

OK, EB axles are shorter than EN and 1st gen weight is less than 2nd yes the shell does relate to the power put to the ground.Since the figures vary when a given engine is installed in different models,some are representative rather than exact.J

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.141) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:35 pm:

Yes, the driveshafts are shorter and lighter but the difference they make will be negligible. The weight of the car makes NO DIFFERENCE to the amount of power an engine puts out. All it affects is the power to weight ratio. Put the same engine in a lighter car and chances are it will be faster. The engine won't be putting out more power, it simply has less weight to move around.
You say your figures are representative rather than exact but I'm sorry, saying putting an EN engine in an EB shell suddenly makes the engine put out an extra 25hp (or even an extra 5hp) is not right (even if measured at the wheels). The differences between the EB and EN drivetrain after the diff are not going to make any really difference to the power measured at the wheels. It would be fair enough to say you would see a difference at the wheels running a 4-speed compared to a 5-speed box, but that isn't huge (as I said, about 5hp).

By mike adams (206.58.33.68) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:46 pm:

Wouldn't this be a matter of hp versus torque? It seems to me that the hp of any given motor is based on the motor itself at a certain rpm level, but that the given torque of a vehicle would be dependent on the drive shaft and the gear box, which would then be messured at the axles, or wheels, however you want to look at it. Maybe hp is increased in the different models based on the levels of fuel and air intake and exhaust flow rather than having anything to do with the actual weight of the car?

By Don (209.181.52.48) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:16 pm:

Adrian, your right!
At least we have the "Guru" to keep the kiddies in line. What happens when they dont listen? ;)

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:32 pm:

The shell does relate to the power put to the ground.The weight of the car DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE HP MEASURED AT THE WHEELS. Since the figures vary when a given engine is installed in different models,some are representative rather than exact.That is you are right,not your right.Are we having fun yet?

By Jon (24.64.223.204) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:55 pm:

That doesn't make any sense to me either. I don't see who having a lighter shell around the motor will make it produce more power. It doesnt make any sense at all.

By mike adams (206.58.33.68) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:02 pm:

Actually it doesn't. I just looked this up for my own sake, the amount of horsepower that any given engine produces is stable. Meaning that regardless of what the motor is in, it will still produce the same amount of horsepower. Horsepower having been measured by dynamometer, which gives a load to the motor and then runs it flat out, measuring peak output at peak rpm. I think what is being confused here would be power to weight ratio, which in any given case would be the amount of effect the horsepower has on a car based on it's weight. It stands to reason that a motor producing 100 hp in a car that weighed 1500 pounds would be more effected by the power than the same motor in a car weighing 2500 pounds. The weight makes the difference not in hp, but in power to weight ratio, which then translates into speed at the wheels. And thanks to this discussion for forcing me to look this up since I never really understood it before now!

By Jon (24.64.223.204) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:04 pm:

Now that makes sense!

way to go Mike

By Don (209.181.52.75) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:09 pm:

Anonymous, How many drugs do you do every day?
Since you want to talk about HP at the wheels of a given car. Then you must first know how a chassis dyno works, and from the comment above you don't. The load, either a brake or a flywheel is turned as fast as the engine will allow in a given amount of time. The rest is pure math and because the car is strapped to the platform it never moves and the weight of the car is never entered into the formula.
The rolling road type dyno does use the weight of the car as the load, but if you have your math correct it will factor out with in a few hp.

Now the weight of the car the engine is installed in will make a difference in performance but the engine does not know what its pushing.

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:10 pm:

The motor won't produce more power the car will just go faster.Since the figures vary when a given engine is installed in different models,some are representative rather than exact.I'm still waiting for the pic of the wagon ID tag with the EL engine code Jon (all EL are 1600 cc)hehehe

By Don (209.181.52.75) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:16 pm:

Anonymous, I think the gray matter between your ears is " representative rather than exact"

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:22 pm:

You guys are to easy!Insults,Don?Come on!Can't you play nice!

By Don (209.181.52.75) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:28 pm:

People are trying to learn and everybody tries keep an open mind, but confusing people with bad info is a waste of time and is not "nice". I did see you got your Civic grill info right so there may be hope for you yet.

By mike adams (206.58.33.68) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:30 pm:

I'm still not understanding anonymous' reference to the the figures varying dependent on the model the engine is in, the hp figure would not change, but the power to weight and conversely the speed would, is that what you mean? Or are you refering to hp in deference to performance only on a subjective level? ie, the wieght would affect perceived horsepower rather than actual horsepower.

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:34 pm:

I think we all learned a little today.Sometimes the best way to learn is to create controvesy.

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:39 pm:

I think the drugs have affected my ability to type.What happened to the spell checker?

By Don (209.181.52.26) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:46 pm:

Lets get one thing straight, there is no such thing as representative, perceived, subjective horsepower. Horsepower is a math formula. Its exact although if your not careful with certain correction factors your data may not be.

Performance is another area all together and its measured in its own areas, but they are not the same.

By Anonymous (24.70.95.203) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:56 pm:

You got it Mike!That's what I was getting at.

By Anonymous (152.163.205.68) on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 10:24 pm:

Damn.. I think I know who is going to get voted off this week!

By kelly (152.163.195.179) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 04:02 am:

anonymous please put a name to your posts. i find that more anoying than the arguments. in the space that says "username" at at the bottom, thats where it goes. you dont need a password.
kelly

By BritCivic (128.243.220.26) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 04:37 am:

So, Anonymous, If I were to fit (don't ask how!) one of the engines from the QE2 (which weighs 70,000 tonnes)putting out 7400 HP into/onto my civic, it would put out some ridiculous power (>10,000 HP!)in my 700 kg Civic......In which case they may have to redefine the speed of light!!!

John B

P.S. Since the figures vary when a given engine is installed in different models,some are representative rather than exact

P.P.S. Please, Nobody tell me my input shaft might break!

By Jon (24.64.223.204) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 07:25 am:

That post above was so funny i couldnt stop laughing for like 5 minutes very very funny example!

By Speedfreak (207.107.254.187) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 03:52 pm:

Horsepower is a result of combustion and is a relation of torque production. Torque is the force that applies the energy to turn the drive wheels, this force can be multiplied depending of gear ratios but will be remain static on an engine installed in to another chassis type. Horsepower is a measure of work preformed through a mathamatical formula and a result of torque production. The power rating of an engine will not change if the engine is pulled from one car and installed into another, unless something are done to the engine to change them. To make these power ratings change two things must be acomplished, first you must increase air flow into the engine and you must also must get the air out. If niether of these steps are taken then you will not have a power increase. Also chassis dynos work on inertia not on wieght of the vehicle as a load. The only time chassis wieght comes into play is when power to wieght ratio is calculated. This figure 'power to wieght' is the real figure that installing a newer engine into our older car improves. I hope this reads well so that everybody understands.

By kelly (205.188.198.182) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 04:21 pm:

im still laughing from Britcivics post
damn that was funny!!!!

By Annoyingass (24.70.95.203) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 04:44 pm:

OK The original question was if anyone knows the accurate HP for the 1335.I stated that the Canadian EB3 makes 63hp and the Canadian EN1 makes 75hp.Any of you "knowitalls" dispute this?I don't profess to be the sharpest tool in the shed but I do know my old Hondas!These figures I gathered using my G-tech Pro.

By John S. (207.160.161.165) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 04:58 pm:

Those are not HP at the wheels, but HP at the flywheel.

By Don (209.181.52.68) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 05:42 pm:

G-tech! Isn't that the box you stick on your dash and plug into the Cigarette lighter?
I wouldn't say that was the most acurate by any means. SF chassis dynos are not all inertia based. But I give up you guys think what you want.

By mike adams (206.58.33.68) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 07:14 pm:

seems to me it would be easy to figure out, the horsepower rating for any given car is the max output for the motor, so just check the specs for the specific car this motor was originally placed in and you should have max hp for the motor itself. Shouldn't have anything to do with the platform it's in.

By dennis singley (65.101.1.155) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 08:42 pm:

THE FINAL WORD! hp & torque don't matter. e.t.'s matter!!! Go to a drag strip & run your car, then use a hp converter to figure it out if you must know.

By Don (209.181.52.95) on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 09:32 pm:

What? Sorry but the drag strip and your car have way too many variables to make that the final word but it could probably come almost as close as the G-tech.
Example My 66 Mustang ran 11.64 with 4.11s and runs 12.50 with 3.0 gears, so using your last statment the car would loose over 100 HP by the gear change and we all know thats not true. The MPH's where close and you can figure HP's that way but its not very close as the amount of wheel spin, lane choice, etc.... make a big difference.

I think Mikes last post returned the subject back to what started all this and said it best.

By Speedfreak (24.78.135.105) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 01:32 pm:

The problem with these figure that are published is that they can vary from year to year and from publication to publication. There is also a different rating for flywheel hp either gross or net, and drivewheel horsepower. Another factor is climate, such as temperature, humidity, elevation and air density. All of these variables can make this figures fluctuate drastically in some cases. For example I live on the coast of B.C. ,low elevation with dense humid air quality, but when I drive in to the interior such as Kelowna the elevation goes up so air is thinner and it also gets drier. There is a loss of torque and horsepower in this change and can be quite noticeable if the engine is not tuned for the conditions. I basic answer to the original question is buy placing in a newer engine into your older car you will have a power increase if the engine has more power than the engine you started with. If you put a 65hp engine into your car, you will have a 65hp engine in your car. How simple is that statement.

By Jesse (134.39.186.149) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 02:10 pm:

Speaking of power loss/gain with elevation. How do I tune my care to work with the elevation. I went on a road trip last summer and was at a really high altitute. When this happened, my power and gas mileage went down the toilet? Any suggestions?

Jesse

By mo (24.69.255.202) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 05:12 pm:

OH MY GOD !!!
what the hell did i start ?
was this the first civic slap around or what ????
i'm laughing myself senseless here !!
y'all are a bunch of size queens ..
haaaa
wow .. guys really ar into comparison ..

o.k.
so, let's see what happens with this ..
you take a basic EN1 1335 motor....
you add a set of rs carbs ..
what's yer hp?

o.k. .. so then you add yer 4-2-1 headers .. now what have you got?

ok. .. so then you ad a medium grind cam for a bit extra kick at 3000rpm ..

i will now sit back with a hot cup of tea ..
LET THE GAMES BEGIN !!!
mo

By Don (209.181.52.80) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 05:23 pm:

MO UR the most sane person on this board, and that's pretty scary.

You forgot to ask what happens when the hot cup of tea, gets dumped in the gastank. That is worth about say, 5-6 Hp? If its not the wimpy decaf green tea.

By Eric (208.60.186.127) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 06:33 pm:

He He thats 20 to 30 more if your using Irish tea

By Don (209.181.52.46) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:40 pm:

If that Irish tea has Bailey's in it, I would not waste that for 20-30 hp. It would have to be at least 60!

By kelly (205.188.198.47) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 07:56 pm:

i love all you guys and girls!!!!!!!!!!

By Anonymous (64.12.102.183) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 08:24 pm:

You know what's really sad? It's wasted space on this board. Only a handfew are donating money to keep it going!

By Puff (209.53.204.202) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 10:58 pm:

I'd like to make a comment that has absolutley nothin to do with this thread. We all love our little cars, thats a givin, but not all of us bought them them in the first place cause we liked em. Some of us bought them because they were a cheap car thats awsome on gas because we couldnt afford much else. As that goes not all of us can afford to be donating money to the board (not saying that we wouldnt if our finacial situations were different) I work 5 days and six nights a week to pay my bills, keep food in my four kids mouths, and have a little extra cash in my pocket and Im getting tired of seeing these little "freeloader" posts all the time. I enjoy coming here and looking at all the posts and reading all the great info. With all due respect to the webmaster, this is, as of todays date, a free board so if those of you who want to whine about freeloaders do it somewhere else.

By Don (209.181.52.50) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 10:58 pm:

I think pretty much everybody who posted except for the anonymous's put in the pot. What about you?

By Don (209.181.52.50) on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 11:01 pm:

I directed that last post to MR: Anonymous,Puff just was faster.

By dennis singley (65.101.3.223) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 02:48 pm:

I guess what I meant was that hp is irrelevant. Don is right, what good is having more hp than the next guy if you can't drive or have different gearing, weight or any of several other variables. Honda never made a big deal about hp when these cars were new, thats why it is hard to pin it down now. All I need to know about hp is whether I can make more of it not what the final # is.
P.S. torque is more fun anyway! Dennis

By mo (24.69.255.202) on Saturday, December 08, 2001 - 11:32 pm:

don, ya kill me man!!
and as for not worrying about hp, i say yer right. as soon as i get my licence ....blah ..

hp is a wonderful thing when you live in the mountains!!

especially when yer hauling those snowmobiles in a blizzard ..
mo