By nate (207.224.233.9) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 05:17 pm:

After the longest time my car finally ran the other day. I have slowly turned a $50 car into a $500 car. One of the most recent things I did is put in a coil from an 88 dodge colt that I found on the side of the road thinking it would work ( by the way I have a 78 civic 1200). My car idled perfectly and ran pretty good for about a mile and then it started surging and then died. I'm pretty sure I killed the coil so I bought the flame thrower coil and the ignighter from pertronix and put it in. so far I havent been able to get it timed right but it backfires beautifully! I'm trying to static time it with a multimeter and for some reason I can't get it right. also I dont understand why my timing light won't work when I'm cranking the engine even if I hook it up to another battery. I finally got so frustrated with the ignighter that I put my points back in only to realise that the cam follower on the points only makes contact when it hits a cam lobe. I'm thinking now that I need to replace my points or figure out how to use the f%&# ignighter or somethin! I'm just frustrated cause it ran great just days ago. Please help guys, any insight would be really helpful!

By Don (209.181.52.78) on Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 06:40 pm:

Are the two wires of the igniter ( + and -) too much for you?
Sounds like you got the firing order or the timing off. Did you take out the distibutor or remove the ignition wires? The more we know about what you did the more we can guess what you messed up.
As for static timing get the piston at TDC and the timing mark at 0 then pull your valve cover and make sure both valves are closed, as it is possible to be 180 degrees out and still have the timing mark up (dang 4 cycle engines and all). Then make sure that the rotor is pointing to the #1 position on the cap.

Last but not least get a good timing light. Today my best friend came the shop in with an over heating problem. I said did you ever set the timing after the timing belt change? He said his light broke so he just set it by ear. Well it was not even close, 35 Btdc inital going to over 60 degrees at high rpm. This could have BLOWN THE ENGINE!

By nate (207.224.233.9) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 11:54 am:

Thanks for the response Don. No I'm not 180 out, yes the rotor is facing the no 1 position on the cap, no I didn't get my firing order mixed up, yes I bypassed the ballast resister like it says to in the pertronix instruction sheet and yes I did take out my distributor but I'm sure I put it in on the right tooth cause when I turn the engine slowly by hand the "points" "open" just as I hit the btdc mark on the crankshaft pully. I just don't get it I have fuel, air, compression and spark (cause I've checked by grounding it out)and it's timed to the best of my ability. It almost catches but just doesn't quite run. Any ideas anybody?

By Darrell --Maryland-- (12.78.129.236) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 01:44 pm:

I like Don's idea. A good timing light could tell you what the problem is in seconds.

Distributors can be hard to line up on the correct gear because the shaft rotates slightly as you push it in.

Also, since you made new electrical connections, the connections might not be as tight as they should be...limiting current, and dropping voltage. You can monitor the voltage on your igition componets while starting the car. Anything less than 10 volts (approximate) is bad.

By Don (209.181.52.73) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 06:17 pm:

Fuel, compression, spark all at the right time will produce combustion. So if it does not run you are lacking one of the above or not getting it at the right time.

Did you fuel foul your plugs by cranking and cranking, just a thought.

By dennis singley (65.101.2.59) on Thursday, February 14, 2002 - 06:28 pm:

Reminds me of an old cartoon; Two mechanics standing next to a burning engine, one says "well it has spark AND fuel".

By Farfignugen (12.110.136.90) on Friday, February 15, 2002 - 02:06 pm:

ok. here's a simple experiment. You may have fuel, but I'd definetly take a funnel (and a straw) and fill up the float chamber in the carb with gas.(thats thru the 2 little holes at the top of the barrel) THEN try and start it. You may be suprised.

I couldn't figure mine out either when I thought I had fuel, compression, spark and timing. Well the fuel wasn't enough to get it going until I filled up the float chamber. Often the simplest tests can work.

By Nate (64.40.42.57) on Saturday, February 16, 2002 - 03:50 pm:

I think Don is right about fouled plugs. Just now I took out one of my plugs and grounded it while someone cranked the engine. I got a weak spark that just arced between the electrode and the case or whatever it's called and only the last spark it made came from between the electrode and the tip like it should. Seems to me that my starter is robbing too much juice from my coil while I'm cranking the engine. Otherwise maybe I just need new plugs like Don says. By the way guys I took the pertronix Ignighter out but left my new flame thrower coil in place with the ballast resistor jumpered just like the instructions say to do. I also put in a new set of points just to narrow things down. I'm sure I have my point gap set to .20 and when I crank the engine by hand with a multimeter on each of the points, they open up just as the pointer is at the btdc mark. Also I have a timing light but it does me no good cause it won't flash until the engine is actually running. Also I have an electric fuel pump that I'm sure is working so in response to Farfignugen, it's not a fuel problem. Anyway I think I'll get new plugs and try it, but if you guys have any more ideas, keep em comin.

By Nate (64.40.39.91) on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 09:16 pm:

I was checking the voltage at the coil today with the ignition on and the engine not running and I only got 10 volts at the battery side of the ballast resistor. I should be getting 12 cause my battery is fully charged and I get 12 from it. Seems to me I must have a short or somethin. I'll go check. If this low voltage problem is normal please let me know. Nate

By Don (209.181.52.47) on Sunday, February 17, 2002 - 11:28 pm:

Nope its not normal and if its low with nothing on you can bet that its worse under load. FYI its high resistance that causes low voltage, not a short. If a short caused that much of a drop, it would not be for long accompanied by a burring smell
An easy charge check of the battery condition is that it should be 12.6 volts fully charged. If its just 12 then put a long slow charge on it. If it still does not come up, replace it. This is true of all 12V batteries regardless of CCA. If it reads higher than 12.6 pull the head lights on for 10 seconds to take off any surface charge, then retest.

By Darrell --Maryland-- (12.91.139.8) on Monday, February 18, 2002 - 05:52 am:

First check your voltage as Don said. Then.....

I had to replace my a ignition switch to get a good enough voltage to run my car. For a while I hot-wired it with a switch.

If you think your switch is bad, you can temporarily connect your battery straight to your coil (with a switch so you can turn the car off).

If the battery is charged, then you have bad connections (resistance). You'll need to clean your connections or replace them. One of the bad conncections could be in your ignition switch.

Darrell

By Nate (207.224.233.9) on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

Thanks for your responses guys, I would have gotten back to you sooner but I've been busy. I think your right Darell about the ignition switch. If I take the connector off and read voltage from there I get the same reading I get at my battery which is around 11.5 to 12 volts. It is tough to tell for sure cause I have an analog multimeter that I have to set to the 50 volt scale. I guess I can have my battery checked at the store where I got it and replace it if it's bad cause it's still under warrenty. Anyway I think I will hot wire it but my only question is there is a black w/white stripe wire that goes from the coil side of the ballast resistor back to the ignition switch and I don't know why it's there. You'd think it's there to provide the juice for the starter but apparently it doesn't cause when I unplug it from the ballast resistor and try to crank the engine my starter works. maybe it's just another symptom of having a bad ignition switch? let me know. Thanks!

By Darrell--Maryland-- (205.199.97.118) on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 03:59 pm:

I don't have any diagrams since I'm in Cali. I can try to help you with the diagrams when I get back to Maryland. I remember the ignition switch had a two wires with the same color code.

Also it's important that you check voltages while the car is running or trying to start. To get a better idea of how good the connections are, you have to consider voltage and current. Bad connection can often deliver voltage, but a bad connection can't deliver voltage while delivering amperage.

It sounds like you did it ok though. If you tested both locations while the engine is off, then yes you have a bad connection and the voltage will get worse at the coil while the car is running.

It's tough to think of voltage and current. Here's what I do... I think of a water hose. The water flowing is like amperage. The water pressure is like voltage. And a kink in the hose like resistance.

So with no flow (amperage) you have good pressure (voltage). With a kink (resistance) and an open hose valve, the open hose valve will decrease the pressure. A good electrical system will deliver the needed amperage while maintaining voltage.

Hope that helps.
Darrell
(normally in maryland)

By Don (209.181.52.60) on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 07:09 pm:

A "voltage drop" reading with your volt meter is useful in cases like this.
http://www.motorage.com/edindex/119618.htm

http://www.fluke.com/application_notes/automotive/circuit.asp?AGID=1&SID=103

http://www.labscopes.com/pg08.htm
Important! you are not measuring the battery voltage, your measuring voltage loss when the circuit is operating. If the drop is more than .5V you have high resistance.

By Nate (66.109.192.151) on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 02:40 pm:

thanks guys, today I'm installing two switches one for run and one for my starter in order to not use my ignition switch. We'll see how that goes. I'll also check my voltage drop as described in the above articles, that should narrow things down. Also Darrell, I'll try to post the wiring diagram I have which is a good one (it came from an electrical diagram book, not a chilton manual).I may not be able to cause I don't know much about computers. Also if your wondering why if I have a wiring diagram I can't figure it out for myself, I'm new to wiring diagrams also. Not getting down on myself, I just have another thing to learn! Nate in WA

By Nate (64.40.41.155) on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 03:39 pm:

one more thing to add since our scanner isn't working, I thought I'd try to describe the wiring in question. O.K. on the ignition switch wiring harness you have a white wire that t's off of the wire from the + batt. terminal to the alternator. this wire is connected to the white w/red stripe when the key is on acc., when the key is in the run position the white wire also is connected to a black w/yell stripe wire that goes to certain acceceries along with going to the ballast resistor and ultimatly to the + side of the coil. Now here is the tricky part. After the ballast resistor there is the wire that goes to the + of the coil which has a black w/white wire that T's off of it and goes back to the ignition switch. This is what has me a little confused. From what I can tell using my mutimeter on Ohms, at my ignition switch I get continuity between the white wire(hot), the black w/white coming from my coil and the black w/white going to my starter. the only thing I can figure is that by having this return wire from the coil combined with juice from the white wire to power the starter is that it acts like a capacitor to smooth out the voltage from the coil. anyway I don't know if this is correct so I'm kind of reluctant to finish wiring the swiches with or without the return line until I find out what the deal is. I hope this makes sense, I really wish I could just post the damn diagram!!! Nate

By Darrell (205.199.97.212) on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 09:56 am:

It's hard to picture what your talking about.

Maybe this helps. The ignition is hot when the key is in the "run"and "start" positions. The starter is only hot in the "start" position. The two ignition wires are probably to supply power while in the "run" and "start" positions.

Once I get back to maryland, I can help more.

By Adrian (Civicguru) (203.42.97.141) on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 03:09 pm:

Ok, I see what you're talking about. I can only assume that you don't know what the ballast resistor is for.
The Civic uses a 6 volt coil, which would obviously burn out fairly quickly if run continuously at 12 volts. The ballast resistor is there to reduce the voltage to around 6 volts while it's running. But, when starting, that Bl/W wire bypasses the ballast resistor (straight from the ignition switch to the coil), thus feeding the 6 volt coil with 12 volts (it also goes to the starter solenoid to turn the starter on). This just gives you a bit of a fatter spark for when starting (theoretically making it a bit easier to start). When running, the ballast resistor forms part of the circuit.
If you have a look at a circuit diagram you'll see that there is a diode in there to stop the start wire (Bl/W) remaining hot when running. If you don't know what a diode is you can consider it as an electrical one-way valve (i.e. allows electricity to flow only in one direction).

By Nate (64.40.40.51) on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:44 pm:

genius, genius, thank you Adrian for explaining exactly what the ballast resistor does it all makes sense now. see just yesterday I rewired my ignition so that I have two switches one for my starter and one for run (I don't have a radio, or a dash to mount it to for that matter so I don't need an acc. switch). Did that and replaced my plugs and it runs great now! Turns out my uncle who has been helping me(a retired captain in the army who was in charge of helicopter maintenance) was wrong when he said I didn't need new plugs even though I got a spark from my plug wire but not my plug. I've just learned another reason why not to trust his judgement. Anyhoo, thanks for the help guys and now that my car runs I can get on to other, better things with it. like getting liscense plates and a dash!