By Paul Krummenacker (216.26.39.192) on Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 02:58 pm:

Howdy all... back after a while off the board, been working too hard.

started the process of rebuilding a '79 EK1 motor today. Background info: this motor came out of an Accord that seems as if it never had the cooling system flushed, got plugged up, probably overheated, may have warped the head (slightly) and blown the head gasket.

The motor is going to be rebuilt using a '79 block, and an '81 head, a '79 intake manifold and carb and probably a custom header... or an '81 manifold.

This motor is to be used for a Rally car, no quarter mile drags here, just good rock solid reliable power.

Questions I have so far are:

#1 If the motor had a spun bearing (#4 piston crankshaft bearing spun) is the crank still usable? I didn't look like it chewed up the crank too bad, nothing that couldn't be machined out, from what I can tell. The bearing rather than being squared is kind of trapazoid shaped.

#2 since I'm getting the crank machined for the spun bearing, should I get it 'knife edged' or
is that really only of benefit for drag racing.

#3 can I get replacement freeze plugs? I want to knock the old plugs out, clean up the cooling system with a die grinder, and get the block completely cleaned out and then reassemble.

#4 if I determine that the cylinder walls aren't out of square and grooved (don't seem to be) can I just do a quick honing and then reassemble with new rings and wrist pins?

#5 would it be of any benefit to enlarge some of the oil passages on the connecting rods or other small passages? or is more oilnot always a good thing?

and finally #6 Does anybody know what causes the #4 cylinder cam lobes to go flat? sounds like an oiling problem to me, or is it just a design feature. Many of the cars I see in the wrecking yard are flat on the #4 cylinder.

that will do it for today.

thanks guys,
Paul K.

p.s. I'm going to be documenting the rebuild process on my web site, link coming soon....

By errol (64.12.105.174) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:10 am:

Paul, if it spun a crank journal it's probably scrap since you can't align bore for that step at the front seal. The crank can be welded and reground and don't 'Knife-edge'it. It's double counterwieghted and would screw up the balance if you did. Spend the money elsewhere.
Have it bored! If Honda has a piston to wall tolerence of .0008-.0015 and you just 'dingleball hone' it youre not trueing up the walls, just inviting blowby and blue smoke.
Yes you can get freezeplugs at any auto parts stores. But don't use a grinder, use a coat hanger and scrape around the base of the cylinder walls, and use a pressure washer with hot water to clean it. Then have it 'decked' flat.
They always wear on 3-4. Just get a couple more and have them plated to withstand the pressure. It would be a good Idea to have a 'good' high performance machineshop test your valve springs also to make sure they're in spec.
DON'T TOUCH the oiling holes on the rods! If anything, make sure your oilpump is within tolerence and add a washer or two to the bypass spring to give more oil pressure.
I just ordered a set of ARP rod bolts from Jeg's for about 38.00US that should fit on a 1751 That's the most common problem with honda rods, and of course get a new cam or have it reground by shadbolt or colt cams

By Paul Krummenacker (12.145.208.12) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 11:55 am:

Here is what I've been told by one of the local really motor building experts. I'm just going to quote him entirely.

NOTE, John V. is not a lover of Japaneese cars, he builds VW's, Saabs and Volvo's, but his info is good, just disregard any bias against Japaneese cars.

with that said, here is Johnny...

">>
>>Questions I have so far are:
>
>Some answers from my experience...and I ain't no
>professional:
>
Well, I am a professional so here's some quick words.
>>
>>#1 If the motor had a spun bearing (#4 piston connecting rod
>>bearing spun) is the crank still usable? I didn't look like
>>it chewed up the crank too bad, nothing that couldn't be
>>machined out, from what I can tell. The bearing rather than
>>being squared is kind of trapazoid shaped.

Call around and find who the machine shops are sending the cranks to for grinding and go there yourself. You can grind cranks, even iron cranks waaaaaaaay more than all the amature nervous nellies go on about, no problem .020 or .030.
Your bigger concern is how badly is the con rod big end bore beat to shit, they alway go way oval when you have a rod bearing failure.
Take the rod bearings from a 'good' rod and put them in to the good rod a couple of times to see how snug they fit in the rod or cap. now take the good bearings and place them in the 'bad' rod. Seeeeee? They're looser than gooser,eh ?

You must weigh rebuilding all the rods, with all the pain in the ass of dismounting pistons (are they pressed on ?) resizing big ends and grinding the crank vs the cost of calling Vern Johnson at ERS, Engine Rebuilder Supply in the Portland OR metro area, somebody alert must have the number. Ask what he might want for a set of 4, and does he keep them grouped when they disassemble. Same time ask him for the price of a good checked crank. Probably a safer route this way and cheaper too vs grind plus rod rebuild.
Oh, yes, you must taunt him and ask him when he's going to come out again and show us what for and then what, he's one of the fastest guys in the country in the woods. Very helpful very friendly, tell whoever you talk to it's for a rally project.


>
>To be absolutely certain, have it magnafluxed.
A really good cleaning and a 100w bulb and lookng carefully is pretty good too, and in any case iron can break at anytime from internal naughtinesses.
Your machine
>shop can tell you whether it's too far gone to grind.
>
>>#3 Does anybody know how hard is it to I get replacement
>>freeze plugs? I want to knock the old plugs out, clean up
>>the cooling system with a die grinder, and get the block
>>completely cleaned out and then reassemble.
>
>Your machine shop can remove the plugs, dip the engine to
>clean it out, then replace the plugs. Not too expensive,
>and a lot easier than the way you're considering.

Have then clean and wash the block and supply the plugs, you an install them yourself with a socket and an extention stuck in the hex side. Á little Permatex 'Ultra-Grey' on the edge and tap it in. why pay machine shop hourly rate to tap in things?

----------->After a bearing failure the most important thing is cleaning all the oil passages! Get a book, look at the diagrams for OIL SUPPLY nad clean out those passages. Ask the machine shop to point out the main oil gallery, get all the plugs for this out prior to tanking the block. Small long brushes like rifle bore brushes will be needed to go thru the long passages and small ones for the passages from mainline to main oil gallery.
----------->whatever crank you get you must clean the passages out in it also, brushes and carb cleaner with long red pissy tube followed by brake clean. i do thin on a table with white towels underneath to motivate me when I see the amount of crap that comes out of "clean' parts.


>
>>
>>#4 if I determine that the cylinder walls aren't worn too
>>wide, out of square or grooved (don't seem to be) can I just
>>do a quick honing and then reassemble with new rings,
>>bearings and wrist pins?

We can survive way more cylinder wall clearance than oem street cars are delivered with but in a motor you describe I would be looking at if the PISTONs skirts had collapsed, being cast crap. Mike them carefully, and check ring side clearance, no room for any deviation there. None. Example: OEM cast Mahle pistons in the bore range 90 to 96mm have oem clearance of .001 to .0012". SAAB says when using cast piston for rally to do .002 to.0025" Twice OEM. Ring side clearance is max .0039" regardless.
>
>Depending on how accurately you can measure these things,
>you may be able to do this. Don't forget taper. Again, your
>machine shop may be able to advise you and measure this
>stuff more accurately than you can.

Ask them to "dial bore gauge the cylinders' and mark them on the block, please.
>
>
>>
>>#5 would it be of any benefit to enlarge some of the oil
>>passages on the connecting rods or other small passages? or
>>is more oil not always a good thing?
>>
More oil is almost always a good thing for carrying away heat.
>
>More oil is not always a good thing. Larger passages =
>lower pressure. There are probably exceptions. Without
>expert advice, leave well enough alone.

Normal practice on OEM is bearing to journal clearance of around .0015 to .002". 2 to 3 thou is fine on a motor that is going to be pounded on.

OIL PRESSURE is controlled by all of the bearing clearances and the relief valve spring in the oil pump. Find it and call some of the thousands of Honda ex-perts out there and ask about a uprated spring. If they don't know about an uprated oil pump spring then they are idiots, run away. You'll want this spring to help out when you fit an oil cooler cause there are always pumping losses in the cooler and more in the hoses.
>
>Does it sound like you need a machine shop you can trust who
>will work with you? I meant it to...
>
>Give some consideration to wear limits. An engine on the
>large side of wear limits will rev better...at the expense
>of oil pressure (bearings) and blowby (cylinders.) At the
>other end of tolerance, the engine will be "tight" but will
>probably last longer before major rebuild. Remember,
>Plastigage is your friend...
>Bruce

Plastigage is play-dough for adults, it tells you bearing clearance in the single plane you placed it on.
To be safe you would want to plastigage each journal in 6 to 10 positions to see if the WHOLE journal was round, tapered etc.

Mike the journal, mike the bearing and mark it, mike the housing bore. Add you bearings to the housing bore and their total better be less than the journal dia. You'll need a "ball nosed mike" to mike the bearings correctly. Never install bearings withOUT miking them. Never.

As they say where those things are made: rotsa ruck.

John V in the throes of a love fest for jap cars.

NOT"

personally I think this might be the absolute RIGHT way to do it, but I'm feeling like cutting corners, probably to my own detrement...

I'm going to pull my '83 motor apart and see what condition it is in. then with the two motors in pieces I'll head over to see John or some of the other gurus and see what they have to say.

thanks guys.
Paul

By Paul Krummenacker (12.145.208.12) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:09 pm:

Are flywheel bolts supposed to be a pain in the butt to get off? 3 of mine came out easy, the other 3 are holding tight and I'm starting to round off the ears trying to get them loose.

By quikrick (63.204.16.66) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 01:01 pm:

I had the same problem, heres what I did. Soak it with liquid wrench, then use a rattle gun (impact wrench). It will still take some time and a few of your favorite cuss words!

By Paul Krummenacker (12.145.208.12) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:20 pm:

ok, that's what I've been doing, I soaked them in penetrating oil, zap them with the impact wrench, heat them up with the propane torch, soak them... let them wait, repeat.

I figure with any luck, I'll snap them off nice and flush with the crank. :-(

just got done taking a ride in my friends Porsche 911 Targa. It has the silly (in my oppinion) 930 slant nose kit with the whale tail. Gotta say, my friend drives it like a grandma. For a car that I know could easily blow the doors of my Accord, he sure didn't drive it like it could. Probably a good thing I don't own something like that.

Well.. I'm off to go strip down my 82 EK1. We'll see what I find. I'm hoping it is in good shape and just needs a fresh cam, and a few minor tweaks.

Quikrick, if you haven't already sent it to me (haven't checked my work email) I'd like to get the info on the non CVCC head that will fit this 82 block. I'd really like to get this motor slapped together in time for my first 'real' rally in November.

I'll let you guys know what I find in the '82 tonight.

Paul

By errol (64.12.105.51) on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:29 pm:

The later crank won't work with your old flywheel! 14mm hex bolts are early and 17mm 12point are the later. and the later crank/flywheel won't fit in the early tranny!
Try tightening the bolts first, then try and loosen them. If 'no' get a 3lb. hammer and give a good flat strike to the head. Try and loosen again. If no, get out a good cold chisel and start whacking at every 1/3rd around. Sometimes with the hammer strike it works but the chisel will get it but it will destroy it (do you have extra?)
there are 3 oil galley plugs (and two oil cooler ports under the filter) with a 'allen/hex' fitting with crushwashers under. Take all out before hot tanking, and scrub the heck out of them with HOT SOPY water after you get it back from the machine shop
Another thing is to look for the oil seal 'groove' worn into the crank from the front and rear seal. don't put the new seals in all the way, just close to where they were. If its a deep groove it WILL leak no matter how nice and clean it is. I like to put a finger full of grease into the back of the seal to prevent the 'holder' spring from popping off when you tap it in.
Oh and yes you can 'resize' the big end with the piston still on!

By mo (24.69.255.202) on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 04:41 am:

flywheel bolts ...
oh my, i've been there, bought the t-shirt ..
what i say???
torch the little buggers!!
best o luck ..

By Jon (24.64.223.204) on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 06:07 pm:

I have ground the head off with an angle grinder on stuborn flywheel bolts then you pull the fly wheel off and just thread iut the remaining bolt.. comes out slick as a whistle

By Eric (208.60.186.95) on Thursday, February 28, 2002 - 12:37 pm:

Speaking of flywheel bolts, I want to put a 1st. gen civic trans. behind an '82 EK1. I have heard that the flywheel bolts need drilled out. Are they a different spacing, or can the existing holes in a 1200 flywheel be drilled for larger bolts? Thanks.......Eric